Don't vote Tory

[uscore]

I know there are only a few Torys here, and they can't really be expected to speak for their entire race,  but a quick question anyway. Boris Johnson, really?? 

Isn't he just a totally amoral w*nker? I have zero % belief that he is in politics for the good of the country, rather than the good of Boris Johnson. 

It all just seems like a game to him, everything he says comes across like a student in a debate game, it doesn't come from the heart, more like he's just been told which side of the argument to take 5 minutes ago, and he'd be just as comfortable taking the other side. He's happy to lie over and over again and repeat widely discredited stories about his opponent. 

People don't really still see him as a lovable buffoon do they? Even if they did, that's no reason to elect him is it? 

He's not far off Trump levels of embarrassment, isn't he? 

 

[babyblade41]

47 minutes ago, uscore said:

I know there are only a few Torys here, and they can't really be expected to speak for their entire race,  but a quick question anyway. Boris Johnson, really?? 

Isn't he just a totally amoral w*nker? I have zero % belief that he is in politics for the good of the country, rather than the good of Boris Johnson. 

It all just seems like a game to him, everything he says comes across like a student in a debate game, it doesn't come from the heart, more like he's just been told which side of the argument to take 5 minutes ago, and he'd be just as comfortable taking the other side. He's happy to lie over and over again and repeat widely discredited stories about his opponent. 

People don't really still see him as a lovable buffoon do they? Even if they did, that's no reason to elect him is it? 

He's not far off Trump levels of embarrassment, isn't he? 

 

I backed Boris before Theresa May but then he watered down his Brexit ideas... I'm not sure he is the right man ( has a habit of making a numpty of himself) . although two stints at being Mayor of London won't do his credibility any harm ... I think it would be David Davis but then his personality puts me off..... at this point I don't know 

[babyblade41]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/16/analysis-do-labours-manifesto-pledges-add/

 

This is where I feel Corbyns figures didn't add  up 

[eFestivals]

19 hours ago, Deaf Nobby Burton said:

Doesn't really help her negotiating stance with the EU though does it, if they know enough about the make up of her party and the way any sort of vote through parliament would likely go. I'm sure she will start with the same stance she had before, saying she wants a hard Brexit and 'no deal is better than a bad deal' but they will know (if they didn't before anyway) that she will never get it through our own parliament anyway and it will have to be watered down considerably.

why? It could still easily end up as the 'soft brexit' most say they want anyway.

May has, after all, made it continually clear (via what she says she's aiming for) that would be no different to a soft brexit.

 

19 hours ago, Deaf Nobby Burton said:

I bet Theresa May is cursing the very existence of that lawyer who forced the high court ruling through about Brexit having to go through parliament.

Quite possibly. Any leader would in an ideal world want to be able to put thru their policies unhindered by outside interference (those courts, &/or parliament), Jezza included.

It doesn't get to mean they necessarily want to put thru anything bad, only that they want to be in control of what they're doing.

[babyblade41]

As for student debt re" tuition fees " I actually think it's a pretty fair system as it is:

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-loans-tuition-fees-changes

 

[Mr.Tease]

8 hours ago, EasyUserName said:

It could be a perception thing, but I thought he (Corbyn) was very much "his team, his way & purge the rest" sort of person ...

Nope, when he was first elected it was the opposite- offered shadow cabinet posts to people from all sections of the party but most of them refused to serve (Yvette Cooper, Chukka, Reeves, etc). Those that were willing, got posts (Andy Burnham Home Secretary, Hilary Benn Foreign Minister). Most of those from the right then spent the next 6 months leaking as many embarrassing stories as possible- literally tweeting during meetings, to try and bring him down. Corbyn then did a mini reshuffle to get rid of those leakers, then the remainder attacked him for daring to get rid of such talent and some more resigned (I think one on air to maximise embarrassment).

Then Hilary Benn started plotting a coup, which led to the mass resignations a year ago. That left barely enough people willing to serve in the shadow cabinet. The shadow cabinet is mainly as it is because those were the only people left willing to serve. Its not been a total disaster though because it's given new faces a chance to shine- Rayner (eductation), Thornberry, Gardiner, etc. Now add some of the old faces and we will hopefully have a nice mix.

 

Edited June 11, 2017 by Mr.Tease

[stuartbert two hats]

38 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

I backed Boris before Theresa May but then he watered down his Brexit ideas... I'm not sure he is the right man ( has a habit of making a numpty of himself) . although two stints at being Mayor of London won't do his credibility any harm ... I think it would be David Davis but then his personality puts me off..... at this point I don't know 

Would it be fair to say he's not really impressed as foreign secretary?

[Mr.Tease]

Tories are hopefully in danger of p****ing people off to an extent they haven't done since 1997. Of course things could always turn around (I would weep if Boris took over and people loved him), but if they mess up brexit or fall soon causing another election, I do hope the electorate punish them spectacularly.

[uscore]

1 minute ago, babyblade41 said:

As for student debt re" tuition fees " I actually think it's a pretty fair system as it is:

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-loans-tuition-fees-changes

 

I went to university for free, so I simply think it's unfair to change the rules for the next generations.  It's already harder for them to buy a house than if was for me, and with Brexit and continued austerity it's not like job prospects are great. I expect a lot of graduates get jobs only just above the minimum rate to pay back, so will notice that 9%more than you'd think. 

 

Incidentally, people keep pointing to the high numbers of 18 to 25,year olds who voted, and saying no tuition fees could be a (selfish) reason, without realising only the younger ones of that age group would actually benefit, a lot of them would already have done uni or got jobs

 

 

 

[eFestivals]

17 hours ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

May has demonstrated she is a weak leader unable to read a situation that she should have been on top of, and in denial as to the outcome.

She will be eaten alive in the brexit negotiations.

We are in trouble.

I don't want to be sticking up for May, but I do get frustrated at seeing what I think is limited thinking that suits what that person thinks, rather than looking at the bigger picture.

May demonstrated she's a crap campaigner, and she took far too much for granted. It's left her in a weak position in the HoC and her party. She's a dead woman walking, who's exceedingly unlikely to be tory leader for the next election (tho events might change things, who knows).

But that makes fuck all difference to the EU. The EU negotiates with the UK's PM as the UK's PM, as the person authorised by the UK to form the UK's deal.

When (say) the French president signs an agreement with the UK, no one is ever thinking "we screwed more out of him because of his weak political position within France". Everything about it works around the strengths of France towards the UK strengths, and fuck all to do with the respective internal positions of those leaders.

So there's no more reason of her being eaten alive following the election than there was before the election. The EU still has the same list of things it wants from a deal.

[babyblade41]

Just now, stuartbert two hats said:

Would it be fair to say he's not really impressed as foreign secretary?

Yes agree with you totally... I'd like there to be no change for a while and see how things settle.in the next couple of months.

I think because the labour vote was a lot more than people thought it would be still doesn't make Mr Corbyn the right person for the job either . The gap between his outcome good as it was is still those myself included who would never change their minds whatever carrot is dangled to vote for him.  That gap will never close whilst he is at the helm .

I think Theresa May has to stay at leas for the next few months...knee jerk reactions are never good 

[babyblade41]

10 hours ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

If you think young people don't know about debt you're much mistaken. Those who go to uni start their working life with  £40,000 of it. Those who don't are probably just as likely to have it. People of my age (34) have no hope ever of getting mortgage. I myself got into loads of debt at uni even though I worked 20 hours a week. The student loan I got didn't even cover rent. So people over 40 don't have a monopoly on debt.

But it is not impossible to get on the property ladder , my youngest at 28 managed last year with her partner . He works at a factory and she left school at 16 and worked as a temp. 

A lot of sacrifice and gruelling hours with no help from me saw them with just enough for a deposit..and now have a house of their own and that's in Oxford so not the cheapest place in the UK 

She had to sacrifice having children to do it mind 

[Mr.Tease]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I don't want to be sticking up for May, but I do get frustrated at seeing what I think is limited thinking that suits what that person thinks, rather than looking at the bigger picture.

May demonstrated she's a crap campaigner, and she took far too much for granted. It's left her in a weak position in the HoC and her party. She's a dead woman walking, who's exceedingly unlikely to be tory leader for the next election (tho events might change things, who knows).

But that makes fuck all difference to the EU. The EU negotiates with the UK's PM as the UK's PM, as the person authorised by the UK to form the UK's deal.

When (say) the French president signs an agreement with the UK, no one is ever thinking "we screwed more out of him because of his weak political position within France". Everything about it works around the strengths of France towards the UK strengths, and fuck all to do with the respective internal positions of those leaders.

So there's no more reason of her being eaten alive following the election than there was before the election. The EU still has the same list of things it wants from a deal.

I honestly think this 'hard brexit'/'soft brexit' argument has been a red herring, because I think at the end of the day we'll find it's not up to us, its up to the EU to decide what deal they'll give us. I think the more we annoy them the more vindictive or petty they will be, so maybe in some way May being such a weak joke now will help things because she can't do all the bluster and threats without people laughing at her.

I agree with you regarding the irrelevance of 'mandates' or strong backing- If you look at Greece- they called that referendum over the bailout deal thinking it would give them some sort of leverage in further negotiations- it did not in the slightest.

[Mr.Tease]

3 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

But it is not impossible to get on the property ladder , my youngest at 28 managed last year with her partner . He works at a factory and she left school at 16 and worked as a temp. 

A lot of sacrifice and gruelling hours with no help from me saw them with just enough for a deposit..and now have a house of their own and that's in Oxford so not the cheapest place in the UK 

She had to sacrifice having children to do it mind 

Should it really be that way though? Why should we have a system where people have to decide between having a home or having children?

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Then Hilary Benn started plotting a coup

after:-

1. the leader continually undermining shadow ministers and positions agreed in shadow cabinet (which happened during the election campaign too, where Corbyn couldn't stick to the manifesto and publicly undermined one of his own shadow ministers.

2. a disastrous EUref campaign where Corbyn refused to engage with the media, left 50% of Labour supporters not knowing Labour's position, and took 6 days holiday.... he said back then he didn't do half hearted, and we now all know he lied.

3. called for an immediate and hard brexit the morning after.

4. was failing at the claims he'd made of himself when campaigning for leader.

These are all much stronger reasons than existed when Corbyn backed 'coups' in the past.

[eFestivals]

22 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Nope, when he was first elected it was the opposite- offered shadow cabinet posts to people from all sections of the party but most of them refused to serve (Yvette Cooper, Chukka, Reeves, etc). Those that were willing, got posts (Andy Burnham Home Secretary, Hilary Benn Foreign Minister). Most of those from the right then spent the next 6 months leaking as many embarrassing stories as possible- literally tweeting during meetings, to try and bring him down. Corbyn then did a mini reshuffle to get rid of those leakers, then the remainder attacked him for daring to get rid of such talent and some more resigned (I think one on air to maximise embarrassment).

you missed out the bits where Corbyn & McD continually undermined the party positions agreed in cabinet, and made shadow ministers look like plonkers.

It happened again during the election campaign where Thornbury & then Corbyn couldn't stick to the manifesto, and supposedly top of the list for the boot in the coming reshuffle is the poor sapp of a minister who gave the agreed party line.

[Mr.Tease]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

after:-

1. the leader continually undermining shadow ministers and positions agreed in shadow cabinet (which happened during the election campaign too, where Corbyn couldn't stick to the manifesto and publicly undermined one of his own shadow ministers.

2. a disastrous EUref campaign where Corbyn refused to engage with the media, left 50% of Labour supporters not knowing Labour's position, and took 6 days holiday.... he said back then he didn't do half hearted, and we now all know he lied.

3. called for an immediate and hard brexit the morning after.

4. was failing at the claims he'd made of himself when campaigning for leader.

These are all much stronger reasons than existed when Corbyn backed 'coups' in the past.

The coup plans were already in place well before the EU referendum- there were leaks going back to the December about the coup plot and how they were going to wait until the referendum. Corbyn's performance was bad after becoming leader, and at the same time their contributions (leaks, constant complaining, go slows, standing back and letting him fail rather than helping, party HQ deliberately undermining things, etc) did not help things, which is why party members gave him another go- they just wanted the PLP to properly give him a go.

Having said that, after the second contest they did at least stop with all the leaks and Corbyn just seemed to go invisible- I do think if this election hadn't been called he would have been gone in a few months- there was a definite drift away from him starting the month or two before the election was called. Ironically, I think if the coup hadn't happened (and assuming there was no post EU referendum surge for Labour had they not been infighting), I think Corbyn may have been gone- in many ways it gave him a second chance and another year.

[Zoo Music Girl]

18 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

But it is not impossible to get on the property ladder , my youngest at 28 managed last year with her partner . He works at a factory and she left school at 16 and worked as a temp. 

A lot of sacrifice and gruelling hours with no help from me saw them with just enough for a deposit..and now have a house of their own and that's in Oxford so not the cheapest place in the UK 

She had to sacrifice having children to do it mind 

Not impossible but a lot more difficult than it used to be. And if you have no partner, forget it.

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

I honestly think this 'hard brexit'/'soft brexit' argument has been a red herring, because I think at the end of the day we'll find it's not up to us, its up to the EU to decide what deal they'll give us. I think the more we annoy them the more vindictive or petty they will be, so maybe in some way May being such a weak joke now will help things because she can't do all the bluster and threats without people laughing at her.

So the EU is run by nasty vindictive people who can't be trusted to act fairly or in the best interests of the EU?

Looks like Farage was making the right call then, in your eyes.

I agree that the deal will be the deal, and that the EU won't go further than they're prepared to, and neither will the UK (or more correctly, the person of May representing her ideas of how far the UK should go).

 

12 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

I agree with you regarding the irrelevance of 'mandates' or strong backing- If you look at Greece- they called that referendum over the bailout deal thinking it would give them some sort of leverage in further negotiations- it did not in the slightest.

So nothing has changed via the election for how May is treated by the EU. What I said.

 

[babyblade41]

Just now, Zoo Music Girl said:

Not impossible but a lot more difficult than it used to be. And if you have no partner, forget it.

It was just as difficult for me 36 years ago especially both of us being self employed... there were some dark times...and kids were a no no for a few of years. Buying a home is never easy and having the threat of losing it in times of severe hardship is never fun .

I did buy on my own eventually as well with 2 small children and tough doesn't come close to it 

[Mr.Tease]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

you missed out the bits where Corbyn & McD continually undermined the party positions agreed in cabinet, and made shadow ministers look like plonkers.

It happened again during the election campaign where Thornbury & then Corbyn couldn't stick to the manifesto, and supposedly top of the list for the boot in the coming reshuffle is the poor sapp of a minister who gave the agreed party line.

I agree, that was one of the things that contributed to the chaos, I'm hoping this election has taught them to clamp down on that- the worst one was when they agreed trident renewal policy at the conference, Clive Lewis wrote a speech declaring it then a few minutes before he got on stage, they passed him a note saying it had been changed! Think he punched a wall when he found out.

They do need to replace that minister though (I think she's in charge of Defence?), they need a much stronger figure there for the next election. 

[Ommadawn]

19 hours ago, frostypaw said:

They had gotten away with it so far..... trouble is once the election was called that bubble was burst and people got to hear the actual policies.

It's still incredible how many Pro-Tory folk I've heard mouthing off making idiots of themselves as they'd clearly not even looked once at the Labour Manifesto; which echos my findings beforehand that almost everyone agreed with it and liked it until they heard who it was from, then the programmed prejudice kicked in.

Maybe that's because it promised all things to all men (apart from the top 5% of earners ). I agreed with the manifesto. I just quickly realised that they wouldn't have been able to implement half of it if they gained power because the money wouldn't have been there. Labour have a habit of doing that. That's why they only tend to get elected when people get so fed up with the Tories, they either stop voting or vote for someone else instead.

[Mr.Tease]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

So the EU is run by nasty vindictive people who can't be trusted to act fairly or in the best interests of the EU?

Looks like Farage was making the right call then, in your eyes.

I agree that the deal will be the deal, and that the EU won't go further than they're prepared to, and neither will the UK (or more correctly, the person of May representing her ideas of how far the UK should go).

 

So nothing has changed via the election for how May is treated by the EU. What I said.

 

which is why I said "I agree"

EU is made of people, and if you annoy someone they tend to get spiteful. I think the main worry is they have two conflicting self-interests- one is getting a good, non-disruptive, sensible deal, the other is not giving such a deal as it might encourage other EU countries to exit the EU (spite!). I think the more you annoy them, the more likely they'll go to the latter.

[Mr.Tease]

4 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

It was just as difficult for me 36 years ago especially both of us being self employed... there were some dark times...and kids were a no no for a few of years. Buying a home is never easy and having the threat of losing it in times of severe hardship is never fun .

I did buy on my own eventually as well with 2 small children and tough doesn't come close to it 

I'm curious, do you find from that experience of struggling that everyone else should have to struggle too, or do you want to help people avoid having to struggle like you had to?

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

The coup plans were already in place well before the EU referendum- there were leaks going back to the December about the coup plot and how they were going to wait until the referendum. Corbyn's performance was bad after becoming leader, and at the same time their contributions (leaks, constant complaining, go slows, standing back and letting him fail rather than helping, party HQ deliberately undermining things, etc) did not help things, which is why party members gave him another go- they just wanted the PLP to properly give him a go.

Having said that, after the second contest they did at least stop with all the leaks and Corbyn just seemed to go invisible- I do think if this election hadn't been called he would have been gone in a few months- there was a definite drift away from him starting the month or two before the election was called. Ironically, I think if the coup hadn't happened (and assuming there was no post EU referendum surge for Labour had they not been infighting), I think Corbyn may have been gone- in many ways it gave him a second chance and another year.

The 'coup' was simply the idea that Corbyn was proving all of the standard polictial narrative correct - that he was unelectable. On that basis, to talk about the possibility that he might have to be removed at some point was sane thing, and not an unnecessary conspiracy.

You said something on the previous page about learning lessons.

The PLP were trying to work from the lessons learnt from the past. Their reasoning was perfectly sound, and the evidence supported it.

The PLP have now learnt that they were mistaken. The likes of you have to learn the lesson of their judgement being good in standard political terms, and that its the last 6 weeks which has changed things.

The idea that they were treating Jezza unfairly has to be put away as wrong, just as they are prepared to put away their previous opinions of how successful Jez might be.

As you said, lessons need to be learnt on both sides. Please take your own advice, so that they can all move forwards together.

Otherwise it's just a personality cult where the Glorious Leader can do no wrong.