Don't vote Tory

[HalfAnIdiot]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

They may or may not.

A unsustainable deal that UK signs up to but doesn't reslly accept isn't something they'd regard as advantageous.

A deal that works for both side is of most importance to both sides. Everything else is secondary to that.

 

PMSL

No deal would be queues of lorries from London to Dover, and from Calais to Paris. It would be chaos.

No deal would be the biggest people-movement in Europe since WW2.  It would be chaos.

Etc, etc, etc.

 

There is no better person than the person leading the largest UK party and who can command a majority in the HoC. Everyone else is democratically weaker.

The tories might decide to swap leader, but they won't be able to command a bigger majority in the HoC and therefore would be no stronger.

And the tories won't be giving up power, unless they want Labour to be holding the very very shitty stick - for tory party advantage, not for labour party adbvntage.

 

In which case they want to stitch-up Labour even worse than they think they'll be stitched up - so if there's a change, it's to advantage the tories and not Labour.

My take is that even with the shittiest of sticks, they'd rather be in control of the shit than not be.

 

Your image of queues of lorries from Calais to London is neither realistic nor a representation of chaos. 

To keep it simple:

Of course the head of negotiations should be the PM.

Of course the Torys want to 'be in control'.

May is unfit for the role of PM and brexiteers negotiator for the reasons I have previously stated.

May must, and will, be replaced. The only questions are timing, mechanism and the replacement.

Taking into account the recent narrative from the Tory party my money is on them allowing May to take the flack for a few more weeks to draw out all of the opposing arguments and then anointing a replacement to be the hero of the hour to deliver brexit and by association the Tory party from the aparant dispair. 

That would be a step forward but we will still be in a weakened negotiating position.

 

 

[waterfalls212434]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

The Labour manifesto had some numbers in it. It doesn't mean that those numbers are an accurate representation of how things would go. 

The IFS said it was a crock of shit. I happen to agree, and I can tell you why too, using evidence and numbers and facts, and not fact rejection and blind faith. 

I don't care about the tory plan. I care about a sustainable Labour govt.

If you can do facts, we can discuss the facts. But that would require you to engage with facts.

 

You dont do facts mate and last time and I think many times ive tried to engage you in sensible debate youve come back at me by putting words into my mouth or trying to claim I said something I hadnt to make yourself up some kind of argument, you dont do facts you just hate corbyn that much is obvious.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, zahidf said:

'Tory Mp lies to the press about supporting May.'

Im sure the meeting tonight will be a celebration as well.

The DUP stuff: there are numerous examples of Sammy Wilson saying homophobic stuff, and Arlene Phillips. Its perfectly reasonable to use that as a stick against them, as is their stance on abortions.

I don't doubt that plenty of them hold reprehensible personal views (as do some Labour MPs too), but it doesn't necessarily follow that they want to force those views on the rest of NI or the UK.

And in the case of the DUP and their views around homosexuality, it's not the case. The facts prove it.

[EasyUserName]

8 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

You dont do facts mate and last time and I think many times ive tried to engage you in sensible debate youve come back at me by putting words into my mouth or trying to claim I said something I hadnt to make yourself up some kind of argument, you dont do facts you just hate corbyn that much is obvious.

That's not really a fact-based reply there though.  "Just saying", as it is amusingly ironic. 

[zahidf]

Just now, eFestivals said:

I don't doubt that plenty of them hold reprehensible personal views (as do some Labour MPs too), but it doesn't necessarily follow that they want to force those views on the rest of NI or the UK.

And in the case of the DUP and their views around homosexuality, it's not the case. The facts prove it.

They are very much anti gay marriage. That is seen nowadays as homophobia 

[waterfalls212434]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

some of us always do facts. Some of never do.

Waterfalls might as well come out and say that he thinks Labour won. ;lol:

 

listen pal there is one party on the rise and one party on the downturn, considering the position the tories have been pushed into and the people they have been forced to work with to retain even the tiniest majority while at the same time trust and support for the opposition party is rising ....I know which party I have more faith in forming a majority government within the next year or so and its not the tories! you are utterly dellusional if you think the current position for the tories is a good one or that labour wouldn't utterly destroy them if put to another vote ESPECIALLY after  the tories showing horrible colours by uniting with the dup

Its not if we have a labour majority government its when. What happened last weekend was the first step in a big change in this countrys thought process and considering many you included were going on and on and on and on and on and on about how corbyn couldnt do fuck all and he was worthless and a vote loser and labour were gonna get spanked I think they are doing pretty fucking well! They gained more vote share then they did even under the blair years and they have the tory party backed into a corner. Time to go for the kill. Your either with them or against them quite frankly I think you need to shit or get off the pot, corbyn isnt going anywhere espcially now so your ranting and raving about how he cant do this and he cant do that is just boring quite frankly. 

You can have a future labour majority and you can belive in that and support it......or you can keep telling us how the tory/dup coalition isnt all bad because their good people really.......lol. Shit or get off the pot fed up of the `I like labour but` attitude. Your either for change  under corbyn or your for people who think women who are raped and want an abortion are going to hell taking part in our government and wrecking their countries peace process on the way. Those are your 2 options, pick one!

Edited June 12, 2017 by waterfalls212434

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

May is unfit for the role of PM and brexiteers negotiator for the reasons I have previously stated.

that's your opinion. I'm sure it's lots of other people's opinion, too.

But there's only one opinion that counts here, and that's the view of the tory party - and it's abundantly clear that, for the moment at least, they're happy for may to be holding the brexit shitty stick.

 

9 minutes ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

May must, and will, be replaced. The only questions are timing, mechanism and the replacement.

There's no doubt she'll be replaced, but there's plenty of doubts about when that might be.

She'll only be replaced if there's an imminent election they feel she'll lose and that someone else would do better at, or if they feel a different leader might immiedately revive tory fortunes more-so than May would.

They'll act in what they think are the best interests of the tory party, and not for any other reason. it's what they'd always do, and Labour 9or any other party) are no different with that.

 

9 minutes ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

Taking into account the recent narrative from the Tory party my money is on them allowing May to take the flack for a few more weeks to draw out all of the opposing arguments and then anointing a replacement to be the hero of the hour to deliver brexit and by association the Tory party from the aparant dispair. 

That would be a step forward but we will still be in a weakened negotiating position.

That's certainly one possibility. If that's going to happen a new GE will be announced no later than the week following the tory conference.

But it doesn't necessarily follow that a new leader would revive tory party fortunes. It could just as easily look like a piss-take of the electorate - remember, that new tory could be 'unelected' PM for nearly 5 years - and make the tory position even worse.

They'll take things slowly, to try and get a handle on which of the many different options is the best way to go - which can include leaving May to keep on carrying that shitty brexit stick in the hope the rest of the tories can disassociate themselves from it to a degree.

[zahidf]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

that's your opinion. I'm sure it's lots of other people's opinion, too.

But there's only one opinion that counts here, and that's the view of the tory party - and it's abundantly clear that, for the moment at least, they're happy for may to be holding the brexit shitty stick.

 

There's no doubt she'll be replaced, but there's plenty of doubts about when that might be.

She'll only be replaced if there's an imminent election they feel she'll lose and that someone else would do better at, or if they feel a different leader might immiedately revive tory fortunes more-so than May would.

They'll act in what they think are the best interests of the tory party, and not for any other reason. it's what they'd always do, and Labour 9or any other party) are no different with that.

 

That's certainly one possibility. If that's going to happen a new GE will be announced no later than the week following the tory conference.

But it doesn't necessarily follow that a new leader would revive tory party fortunes. It could just as easily look like a piss-take of the electorate - remember, that new tory could be 'unelected' PM for nearly 5 years - and make the tory position even worse.

They'll take things slowly, to try and get a handle on which of the many different options is the best way to go - which can include leaving May to keep on carrying that shitty brexit stick in the hope the rest of the tories can disassociate themselves from it to a degree.

Works less with such a small majority.

 

If it was so shit, why didnt you vote against her policies or against her for labour's vote of no confidence'?

Also, on Saturday night, Downing St told us a deal had been reached with DUP. Now Queen's Speech delayed as no deal struck with DUP. This is farcical incompetence territory.

[waterfalls212434]

12 minutes ago, EasyUserName said:

That's not really a fact-based reply there though.  "Just saying", as it is amusingly ironic. 

I wasnt claiming it was, that is my opinion ive seen nothing but anti corbyn stuff out of this guy for months in any politics thread that springs up on here.......basic logic says if someone is constantly and I mean constantly having a go at someone.....they dont tend to like them!

[zahidf]

The reason why the queens speech cant happen without a weeks notice

 

 

[babyblade41]

1 minute ago, waterfalls212434 said:

I wasnt claiming it was, that is my opinion ive seen nothing but anti corbyn stuff out of this guy for months in any politics thread that springs up on here.......basic logic says if someone is constantly and I mean constantly having a go at someone.....they dont tend to like them!

I'd say playing devils advocate rather than anti corbyn 

[eFestivals]

19 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

You dont do facts mate and last time and I think many times ive tried to engage you in sensible debate youve come back at me by putting words into my mouth or trying to claim I said something I hadnt to make yourself up some kind of argument, you dont do facts you just hate corbyn that much is obvious.

says the man who's said I'm a tory, that I wanted labour to lose, that I'm backing May, and that being critical of Corbyn can only be the hate you've said yet again, and so many other fact-free fantasies I've lost track of them.

My criticisms of Corbyn are all based in facts.

The fact of him having marginal views at odds with much of the country.
The fact of him having shit appeal for 2 years, the worst of any Labour leader ever.
The fact of him being a shit leader that undermined his own shadow ministers (which still hasn't ended).
The fact that he couldn't even stick to his own message in his own relaunch.
The fact of him lying about his own deputy's complaint.
The fact of the manifesto over-promising by a huge extent.
Etc, etc, etc.

Wanna talk about facts? Nope, you never do. 

[eFestivals]

16 minutes ago, zahidf said:

They are very much anti gay marriage. That is seen nowadays as homophobia 

then Tony Blair is a homophobe.

[DeanoL]

 

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

just because you don't like how the FPTP system works doesn't get to mean that the FPTP system is ended. The system changes only after the system is changed

Like how the system says referendums are advisory? I think it's clear that the perception of 'fair' matters more than the actual rules these days. Not that Labour won the popular vote either so it doesn't actually matter in this case.

[HalfAnIdiot]

10 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

that's your opinion. I'm sure it's lots of other people's opinion, too.

But there's only one opinion that counts here, and that's the view of the tory party - and it's abundantly clear that, for the moment at least, they're happy for may to be holding the brexit shitty stick.

 

There's no doubt she'll be replaced, but there's plenty of doubts about when that might be.

She'll only be replaced if there's an imminent election they feel she'll lose and that someone else would do better at, or if they feel a different leader might immiedately revive tory fortunes more-so than May would.

They'll act in what they think are the best interests of the tory party, and not for any other reason. it's what they'd always do, and Labour 9or any other party) are no different with that.

 

That's certainly one possibility. If that's going to happen a new GE will be announced no later than the week following the tory conference.

But it doesn't necessarily follow that a new leader would revive tory party fortunes. It could just as easily look like a piss-take of the electorate - remember, that new tory could be 'unelected' PM for nearly 5 years - and make the tory position even worse.

They'll take things slowly, to try and get a handle on which of the many different options is the best way to go - which can include leaving May to keep on carrying that shitty brexit stick in the hope the rest of the tories can disassociate themselves from it to a degree.

The 'old guard' are plainly back in charge. They will of course, and by their nature' take it slowly.

My original point still stands. We are in trouble re the brexit negotiations. May must (and now likely will) be replaced within weeks.

[waterfalls212434]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

says the man who's said I'm a tory, that I wanted labour to lose, that I'm backing May, and that being critical of Corbyn can only be the hate you've said yet again, and so many other fact-free fantasies I've lost track of them.

My criticisms of Corbyn are all based in facts.

The fact of him having marginal views at odds with much of the country.
The fact of him having shit appeal for 2 years, the worst of any Labour leader ever.
The fact of him being a shit leader that undermined his own shadow ministers (which still hasn't ended).
The fact that he couldn't even stick to his own message in his own relaunch.
The fact of him lying about his own deputy's complaint.
The fact of the manifesto over-promising by a huge extent.
Etc, etc, etc.

Wanna talk about facts? Nope, you never do. 

I love this I really do much of the above is opinion not fact and the first 3 cannot be correct because if they were then labour would have indeed been wiped out! that didnt happen! because people backed the man! what do you think they fucking sprung up overnight all these backers? or could it just be he had pleanty of support all along just many refused to believe it until they had no choice last weekend!

but no hes a shit leader, he really is, masterminded the biggest political recovery and swing in decades but no hes clearly shit isnt he? this is what I mean by deluded pal you really fucking are so dont try and talk down to me as per the norm when you talk such bollocks yourself eh? 

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

listen pal there is one party on the rise and one party on the downturn, considering the position the tories have been pushed into and the people they have been forced to work with to retain even the tiniest majority while at the same time trust and support for the opposition party is rising ....I know which party I have more faith in forming a majority government within the next year or so and its not the tories! you are utterly dellusional if you think the current position for the tories is a good one or that labour wouldn't utterly destroy them if put to another vote ESPECIALLY after  the tories showing horrible colours by uniting with the dup

I wonder whether the tory party will put Labour in power for you? How often do the tory party do the thing you're wanting?

Do you think they will? I don't ... unless they think brexit is so very toxic that they'd rather Labour were poisoned than them.

 

12 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

Its not if we have a labour majority government its when.

I don't disagree.

It might be this year, next year, ihn 5 years, or in ten years. We'll have to see, but the ones most in control of a Labour victory are....? The tories.

 

12 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

What happened last weekend was the first step in a big change in this countrys thought process and considering many you included were going on and on and on and on and on and on about how corbyn couldnt do fuck all and he was worthless and a vote loser and labour were gonna get spanked I think they are doing pretty fucking well!

Until 6 weeks ago Corbyn *HAD* done fuck all.
Until 6 weeks ago he *WAS* a vote loser.
Until 6 weeks ago *everyone* thought they were going to get spanked.

And even on election day? All the posts here - including from those who said they'd voted for him as leader - were that labour were going to get spanked.

Everyone was wrong. Even Corbyn himself. And yep, even you too. 

 

12 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

They gained more vote share then they did even under the blair years

Nothing you can credit Corbyn for unless you're also crediting Corbyn with lying to the country about supporting remain, causing brexit, and so the collapse of UKIP.

If you want to call Corbyn a brexit-wanting-lying-kipper, go ahead.

The rest of us know that circumstances benefitted him and not all you claim for him was his doing.

 

12 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

and they have the tory party backed into a corner. Time to go for the kill.

A kill that it's impossible for them to make without the tories gifting Labour an election to put Labour in power.

 

12 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

Your either with them or against them quite frankly I think you need to shit or get off the pot, corbyn isnt going anywhere espcially now so your ranting and raving about how he cant do this and he cant do that is just boring quite frankly. 

Care to tell me how he'll introduce a transaction tax which will makes financial trades less profitable (or not profitable at all, for some) but that qall current financial trades will continue at the same rate despite the finances of them having changed?

Care to present some evidence to back up that manifesto claim?

No?

Cos I can present plenty to *prove* it's a crock of shit.

And then you run away. :lol:

 

12 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

You can have a future labour majority and you can belive in that and support it

I can't support what doesn't exist.

 

12 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

......or you can keep telling us how the tory/dup coalition isnt all bad because their good people really......lol.

PMSL :lol:

There you go again, all fantasy and no brain.

 

12 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

Shit or get off the pot fed up of the `I like labour but` attitude. Your either for change  under corbyn or your for people who think women who are raped and want an abortion are going to hell taking part in our government and wrecking their countries peace process on the way. Those are your 2 options, pick one!

That's it. You're either the full Corbyn or you're a tory. There is no other way.

[waterfalls212434]

10 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

I'd say playing devils advocate rather than anti corbyn 

months and months of it? everytime the topic came up? no mate thats an agenda right there, this guy presents himself as this all knowing all wise political mouthpeace when all he does is corbyn did this corbyn did that blah blah fucking blah. Id have much more respect for the guy if he just came out and admitted he had a problem with the guy rather then pulling the `id like him to win but` bullshit all the time making excuses and making arguments up. hers just a bit bitter as well as all his bullshit about corbyn being a hopeless case was proved wrong last weekend so all I can say is ha! but enough of this crap if he wants to play mr negative mr tory in disguise all the time then fuck it, time to just let the baby have his bottle lol you go ahead mate you belive whatever you want to believe itll be all the more fun when your proved wrong again when the tories/dup collapse soonish

[babyblade41]

1 minute ago, waterfalls212434 said:

months and months of it? everytime the topic came up? no mate thats an agenda right there, this guy presents himself as this all knowing all wise political mouthpeace when all he does is corbyn did this corbyn did that blah blah fucking blah. Id have much more respect for the guy if he just came out and admitted he had a problem with the guy rather then pulling the `id like him to win but` bullshit all the time making excuses and making arguments up. hers just a bit bitter as well as all his bullshit about corbyn being a hopeless case was proved wrong last weekend so all I can say is ha! but enough of this crap if he wants to play mr negative mr tory in disguise all the time then fuck it, time to just let the baby have his bottle lol you go ahead mate you belive whatever you want to believe itll be all the more fun when your proved wrong again when the tories/dup collapse soonish

Can we agree to disagree now and call it quits... we could go round and round and get nowhere 

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, zahidf said:

If it was so shit, why didnt you vote against her policies or against her for labour's vote of no confidence'?

Sorry? When did i become an MP? I must have missed that on Thursday.

 

17 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Also, on Saturday night, Downing St told us a deal had been reached with DUP. Now Queen's Speech delayed as no deal struck with DUP. This is farcical incompetence territory.

yep.

But a farcical incompetence where the tories still have the numbers in their favour.

[eFestivals]

19 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

I wasnt claiming it was, that is my opinion ive seen nothing but anti corbyn stuff out of this guy for months in any politics thread that springs up on here.......basic logic says if someone is constantly and I mean constantly having a go at someone.....they dont tend to like them!

Nope, that's not logic, that's just your own stupidity telling you that. 

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, HalfAnIdiot said:

The 'old guard' are plainly back in charge. They will of course, and by their nature' take it slowly.

My original point still stands. We are in trouble re the brexit negotiations. May must (and now likely will) be replaced within weeks.

the 'trouble' about the brexit negotiations exists in the HoC and nowhere else - because any negotiating that can't be put thru the HoC might as well be no negotiation.

[waterfalls212434]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Nope, that's not logic, that's just your own stupidity telling you that. 

 

because its quite normal to do nothing but fling mud for months at someone you like......lol

[waterfalls212434]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

That's it. You're either the full Corbyn or you're a tory. There is no other way.

Oh? so tell me what other choice we have as far as people to lead the country over the next few years? its labour or the tories those are your choices. Simple really. Or perhaps you believe tim farron can make a shock resurgence and outdo them both? lol

 

[waterfalls212434]

6 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

Can we agree to disagree now and call it quits... we could go round and round and get nowhere 

Ive said all I needed to, im going to let the baby have his bottle as I said sit on this and then ill be back when we have pm corbyn in a few months time to rub it in this fools face, he`ll love that im sure