Róisín Murphy

[Wooderson]

Just now, Skip997 said:

Just noticed you're from Dublin, so maybe.

😄😄😄

Sorry for hurting your culchie feelings.

 

[MEGABOWL]

23 hours ago, gigpusher said:

Not exactly on fire but I have definitely not seen the same level of reaction to it. Maybe I just haven’t read it the same way as other people but she doesn’t seem to me to have said anything hateful about trans people or their right to exist she doesn’t agree with a particular kind of medicine. 
 

I used to work with a woman who was otherwise very nice and kind who had really weird opinions about anti-depressants. She thought it was also some big pharmaceutical conspiracy and I disagreed with her but it didn’t stop her doing her job and being good at it. 

I haven’t seen her say any such thing. If I’ve missed it, fair enough, but querying the use of drugs on kids does not equate to ‘wanting all trans people dead.’ That simplistic fundamentalism makes discussing anything impossible.

[Skip997]

20 minutes ago, MEGABOWL said:

I haven’t seen her say any such thing. If I’ve missed it, fair enough, but querying the use of drugs on kids does not equate to ‘wanting all trans people dead.’ That simplistic fundamentalism makes discussing anything impossible.

There's a huge problem with this at the moment.

Radical groups are effectively shutting down debate in a number of areas. All they have to do is label someone and that's it, conversation over, no possibility of people being educated.

It's all too "black (am I allowed to say that) and white".

[gigpusher]

33 minutes ago, MEGABOWL said:

I haven’t seen her say any such thing. If I’ve missed it, fair enough, but querying the use of drugs on kids does not equate to ‘wanting all trans people dead.’ That simplistic fundamentalism makes discussing anything impossible.

Yep that’s exactly what I am saying. I think you might have misread my post. 

[plaskins]

1 hour ago, Skip997 said:

There's a huge problem with this at the moment.

Radical groups are effectively shutting down debate in a number of areas. All they have to do is label someone and that's it, conversation over, no possibility of people being educated.

It's all too "black (am I allowed to say that) and white".

There should always be discussions and debates. I do think we are very very censored these days in a way when some opinions are shared. I didn't know about puberty blockers to be honest until this, and probably might not have followed or heard in the news if it wasn't for this forum. I don't really know if they are a good thing or a bad thing as haven't really thought about it, what I feel a little strange is people generally can't make major decisions in life until 16 or 18 generally, is that for a reason? I would find it very difficult making consensual decisions for those so young. Must be difficult 

[MEGABOWL]

1 hour ago, gigpusher said:

Yep that’s exactly what I am saying. I think you might have misread my post. 

Actually it’s more that I was doing a really badly worded attempt at agreeing with you

[Ryan1984]

2 hours ago, Skip997 said:

There's a huge problem with this at the moment.

Radical groups are effectively shutting down debate in a number of areas. All they have to do is label someone and that's it, conversation over, no possibility of people being educated.

It's all too "black (am I allowed to say that) and white".

Richard Ayaode has a quote on Graham Linehan’s book and you’d have thought he had said something as transphobic as his mate.

[Isaact]

9 hours ago, Ryan1984 said:

Richard Ayaode has a quote on Graham Linehan’s book and you’d have thought he had said something as transphobic as his mate.

Graham Linehan is a full-on extremist who was banned from twitter for threatening to kill several female comedians, he was only allowed back when Musk came on and let all the really extreme people back, and who regularly 'outs' trans people by doxxing them with pre-transition photos.

Even being willing to be in the same room as him is guilt-by-association, it's like providing a nice quote for Oswald Mosley's book.

He's fathoms worse than Roisin or any of the other celebrities are. He's too extreme for JK Rowling, who (sensibly) avoids any association with him at all.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Isaact

[collectivisedfarming]

Graham Linehan lost his family and career because he got more enjoyment out of calling people on the internet nonces. His "I'm sticking up for women and children" is offensive to both women and children, of whom he has helped not a single one. 

If that's someone who Ayoade wants to associate himself with positively then crack on, but expect to be critiqued accordingly and robustly. 

[Wooderson]

Linehan another ignorant Irish cretin. This is ripples of toxic catholicism manifesting.

He will also have his breakdown / apology tour in due course. They all do.

[zahidf]

36 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

Linehan another ignorant Irish cretin. This is ripples of toxic catholicism manifesting.

He will also have his breakdown / apology tour in due course. They all do.

He doesnt need to apologise. Hes written some crappy book and his celebrity mates are endorsing it, so he'll crack on

 

I think Roisin has been widely critiqued and her response was ridiculous. Situation is as per from another thread

 

1. an artist with a large LGBTQ+ fanbase makes transphobic remarks after purporting to be an LGBYQ+ ally

2. people in that fanbase being upset by this turn of events by someone who had previously been an ally

3. Said artist then effective doubling down on this transphobic position

[gigpusher]

27 minutes ago, zahidf said:

He doesnt need to apologise. Hes written some crappy book and his celebrity mates are endorsing it, so he'll crack on

 

I think Roisin has been widely critiqued and her response was ridiculous. Situation is as per from another thread

 

1. an artist with a large LGBTQ+ fanbase makes transphobic remarks after purporting to be an LGBYQ+ ally

2. people in that fanbase being upset by this turn of events by someone who had previously been an ally

3. Said artist then effective doubling down on this transphobic position

But that's my issue it's no more transphobic than an anti-vax person being ageist and ableist and even though I absolutely don't buy the anti-vax narrative I'd feel it was extreme to say everyone who is anti-vax is basically saying that they hate all old and vulnerable people.  She said she doesn't trust a medicine, nothing to do with the people who take the medicine. It's an anti-science position rather than anything else. I'm also not saying I agree with her. For the record I'll admit to having nowhere near enough knowledge about puberty blockers to say if they are good or bad. I suspect like most medicines they are overall good but prone to having unwanted side effects for some people perhaps Rosin knows one of those people.

I also think Graham Linehan is an example of how badly it can go wrong. He seemed relatively open to the first criticism he got but when it became a pile on he shut down and his positions became more entrenched and extreme and now he seems to have almost gotten to the stage of having some kind of mental illness such is his obsession with a topic that really has no impact on his life in the first place.

That's my issue I think extreme reactions create extremists. If Roisin ends up without a music career over this she's not likely to retrain in cyber but far more likely to feel victimised and take up a more extreme position than she ever had.

I think we are starting to notice the horrendous effects that social media has on an ability for people to have nuanced views on topic that are not yes or no issues and how damaging that becomes to peoples mental health and to society in general.

[zahidf]

6 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

But that's my issue it's no more transphobic than an anti-vax person being ageist and ableist and even though I absolutely don't buy the anti-vax narrative I'd feel it was extreme to say everyone who is anti-vax is basically saying that they hate all old and vulnerable people.  She said she doesn't trust a medicine, nothing to do with the people who take the medicine. It's an anti-science position rather than anything else. I'm also not saying I agree with her. For the record I'll admit to having nowhere near enough knowledge about puberty blockers to say if they are good or bad. I suspect like most medicines they are overall good but prone to having unwanted side effects for some people perhaps Rosin knows one of those people.

I also think Graham Linehan is an example of how badly it can go wrong. He seemed relatively open to the first criticism he got but when it became a pile on he shut down and his positions became more entrenched and extreme and now he seems to have almost gotten to the stage of having some kind of mental illness such is his obsession with a topic that really has no impact on his life in the first place.

That's my issue I think extreme reactions create extremists. If Roisin ends up without a music career over this she's not likely to retrain in cyber but far more likely to feel victimised and take up a more extreme position than she ever had.

I think we are starting to notice the horrendous effects that social media has on an ability for people to have nuanced views on topic that are not yes or no issues and how damaging that becomes to peoples mental health and to society in general.

But thats linehan's fault really. He didnt have to get cancelled by his wife and kids. Its like Hadley Freeman not being able to get interviews anymore, because all she does it talk about trans people and defend woody allen to them. They are making a choice in their views. Much like Ayoade made a choice to endorse his transphobic mate's book. What are they expecitng the result to be from non-bigoted people

Roisin had the opportunity to take back what she said, but she doubled down. If she gets a negative reaction, thats her fault really. 

[Isaact]

She didn't even need to go back on what she said - a "I understand the reactions some of you have had to what I said, it wasn't meant to be for public consumption, nevertheless I am entering a period of listening and learning and in the meantime I want to step out of this debate entirely" would have been a pretty sufficient response.

It's also the one any PR or agent worth their salt would have told her to say.

Instead she doubled-down and denied that she had ever targeted LGBTQ+ people with her music.

Couldn't have gone with a worse response really.

[Wooderson]

1 hour ago, Isaact said:

She didn't even need to go back on what she said - a "I understand the reactions some of you have had to what I said, it wasn't meant to be for public consumption, nevertheless I am entering a period of listening and learning and in the meantime I want to step out of this debate entirely" would have been a pretty sufficient response.

It's also the one any PR or agent worth their salt would have told her to say.

Instead she doubled-down and denied that she had ever targeted LGBTQ+ people with her music.

Couldn't have gone with a worse response really.

Agree with you to an extent, whilst I think its legitimate and reasonable of her to say she didnt cynically target her music at a particular group the above statement would have done the business. You could have provided that foc and saved her a lot of hass.

[acidstorm523]

I think it’s sad the the world is such an angry place at the moment. Reasonable debate completely shut down. 
I’m older and grew up in the epicentre of the lgbtq community in London in the 80s. I have always accepted people for whoever they choose to be. 
 

in this case, it seems to me that Rosin is tAlking about a medical intervention that may cause harm to some young people in the long term, so should be looked at fully. Why is it a hate crime to suggest that young and possibly confused people should be thoroughly supported before changing their biology. It’s not a quick fix and although it may well have the effect of making them feel better, a lot of that might be about being actually listened to and feeling their troubles are taken seriously. 

People saying she should be banned because she has a gay fanbase are really confusing a lot of issues and lumping all sorts of groups of people together.  Queer Sexuality is not the same as gender. Queer people and drag queens are not really in the same group as people who want to transition, although of course they find support with eachother. Medical intervention and altering physical bodies forever is not the same as exploring sexuality and gender identity. 
 

All this reactionary anger stifles debate. As a parent of teenagers, you see how kids change their very strong beliefs as they grow. Tomboys , as I was, just don’t seem to exist so much , it’s straight into dysphoria. I think kids are actually put under a lot of pressure by adults. All the hate needs to calm down. I miss the days of live and let live. 

[Skip997]

1 minute ago, acidstorm523 said:

I think it’s sad the the world is such an angry place at the moment. Reasonable debate completely shut down. 
I’m older and grew up in the epicentre of the lgbtq community in London in the 80s. I have always accepted people for whoever they choose to be. 
 

in this case, it seems to me that Rosin is tAlking about a medical intervention that may cause harm to some young people in the long term, so should be looked at fully. Why is it a hate crime to suggest that young and possibly confused people should be thoroughly supported before changing their biology. It’s not a quick fix and although it may well have the effect of making them feel better, a lot of that might be about being actually listened to and feeling their troubles are taken seriously. 

People saying she should be banned because she has a gay fanbase are really confusing a lot of issues and lumping all sorts of groups of people together.  Queer Sexuality is not the same as gender. Queer people and drag queens are not really in the same group as people who want to transition, although of course they find support with each other. Medical intervention and altering physical bodies forever is not the same as exploring sexuality and gender identity. 
 

All this reactionary anger stifles debate. As a parent of teenagers, you see how kids change their very strong beliefs as they grow. Tomboys , as I was, just don’t seem to exist so much , it’s straight into dysphoria. I think kids are actually put under a lot of pressure by adults. All the hate needs to calm down. I miss the days of live and let live. 

What an absolutely superb post.

[acidstorm523]

9 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

What an absolutely superb post.

I had to think a long time before even posting it, because you just know there’s a ton of mud coming back. 
I love healthy debate, but I’ve become so wary of social media’s a extremism. 
It seems like young people are more unhappy and unable to find joy without being angry about everything than ever in my lifetime , and that’s really sad.  A time in social history which I hope passes. 

[zahidf]

13 minutes ago, acidstorm523 said:

I think it’s sad the the world is such an angry place at the moment. Reasonable debate completely shut down. 
I’m older and grew up in the epicentre of the lgbtq community in London in the 80s. I have always accepted people for whoever they choose to be. 
 

in this case, it seems to me that Rosin is tAlking about a medical intervention that may cause harm to some young people in the long term, so should be looked at fully. Why is it a hate crime to suggest that young and possibly confused people should be thoroughly supported before changing their biology. It’s not a quick fix and although it may well have the effect of making them feel better, a lot of that might be about being actually listened to and feeling their troubles are taken seriously. 

People saying she should be banned because she has a gay fanbase are really confusing a lot of issues and lumping all sorts of groups of people together.  Queer Sexuality is not the same as gender. Queer people and drag queens are not really in the same group as people who want to transition, although of course they find support with eachother. Medical intervention and altering physical bodies forever is not the same as exploring sexuality and gender identity. 
 

All this reactionary anger stifles debate. As a parent of teenagers, you see how kids change their very strong beliefs as they grow. Tomboys , as I was, just don’t seem to exist so much , it’s straight into dysphoria. I think kids are actually put under a lot of pressure by adults. All the hate needs to calm down. I miss the days of live and let live. 

But they are given support before being prescribed any medication, and it takes years of consultation before any gender change is made. Its a TERF myth that big Pharma are just handing it out without any thought or to make money. 

She cant just say transphobic stuff and complain about how everyone is being mean to her, and why cant we all just get along. Maybe people should try to not be transphobic. 

[Skip997]

2 minutes ago, acidstorm523 said:

I had to think a long time before even posting it, because you just know there’s a ton of mud coming back. 
I love healthy debate, but I’ve become so wary of social media’s a extremism. 
It seems like young people are more unhappy and unable to find joy without being angry about everything than ever in my lifetime , and that’s really sad.  A time in social history which I hope passes. 

It's an absolute "mine field" out there and it's not just social media and it's not just trans issues.

Try saying Israel is wrong in their treatment of Palestine and you are suddenly Hitler.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

23 hours ago, Wooderson said:

From personal experience, yes. 😄

Does that make the statement 'universal'? If so, where lies your definition of democracy?

Really not having a pop. You can believe that or misbelieve - that's up to you.

Btw - 'coulchie' I know is an ouch word. As is 'Jackeen'.

 

As an aside, I one happened o find myself in Dublin, off my trolley, but asking all passers by if they had any gear to sell (this was many moons ago). In the end I flagged a taxi to take me to north Dublin, as I knew it to be the home of the 'underbelly', so to speak. Guess what? The taxi driver refused me. No matter what money I proffered he said he wouldn't. When I eventually asked why, he said it was 'because they'll kill you, and I don't want that on my conscience'. 

 

[acidstorm523]

Just now, zahidf said:

But they are given support before being prescribed any medication, and it takes years of consultation before any gender change is made. Its a TERF myth that big Pharma are just handing it out without any thought or to make money. 

She cant just say transphobic stuff and complain about how everyone is being mean to her, and why cant we all just get along. Maybe people should try to not be transphobic. 

I really don’t think she is being transphobic, I’m sorry. 
I was on the board of governors at my kids primary school, and I saw two kids go to the Tavistock. One was a friends child who came from a very very troubled background. There were so many reasons why confusion might occur. Don’t forget the gender identity clinic has been shut down as it was so unprofessional. There really are adults with their own personal agendas and interests who were really conducting experiments behind closed doors. There really are kids who now regret decision they made and cannot be reversed. 
I know there are kids for whom this is appropriate. But I believe you will also find that in many cases there is minimal intervention before medication and it really is wise to look at it and structure it properly. 
you can’t get counselling for kids for many issues anyway and there may well be underlying issues unaddressed. 

[acidstorm523]

6 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

It's an absolute "mine field" out there and it's not just social media and it's not just trans issues.

Try saying Israel is wrong in their treatment of Palestine and you are suddenly Hitler.

Been there, tried that! In fact, that’s was the end of my political engagement online. That and BLM where I was torn to shreds, and I am a mixed race woman from 70s London!! But apparently I know nothing. 

[The Nal]

16 minutes ago, zahidf said:

But they are given support before being prescribed any medication, and it takes years of consultation before any gender change is made.

Not in all countries. Not in most states in America for example. Can buy them as easily as milk. 

Its all a bit Twitter anyway. You're either a paedo or a Nazi, or a TERF, or a Lib. Don't dare try speak about the 98% in between. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by The Nal

[acidstorm523]

3 minutes ago, The Nal said:

Not in all countries. Not in most states in America for example. Can buy them as easily as milk. 

And it doesn’t take years of support before puberty blockers in the uk. Their effects can be serious and irreversible. It’s not a TikTok expert debate! They come far too easily when kids feelings may well change. That’s not disrespectful, it’s just a fact of growing up. The beauty of youth and and free exploration of ideas.