This morning...

[Cornelius_Fudge]

11 hours ago, bamber said:

The thing that complicates this is the simple fact that the guys targeted in these "extrajudicial killings" are not the good guys. They are mostly murderers, serial murders, mass murders, rapists, serial rapists, instigators of murder and rape and suicide bombing. Be-headers, serial be-headers, instigators of be-heading, for example.

Now, here's a thought experiment, I give you the keys to my time travel drone, and I send you back to the summer and give you control of the drone hovering above an apartment block in Nice, where one occupant has hired a truck and is going to use it to kill 86 people the next day, You have your finger on the button. Do you press it? Other innocent people may die if you do, but you will save 86 lives?

This is the dilemma that Obama and H. Clinton have faced on a regular basis for the last eight years.

I'm glad it's not me. Obama may in time be remembered as a great president. Trump will not.

That's right out of Trump's speech writers notes. No wonder everyone wants to halt immigration from these countries.

[russycarps]

Judge and jurors are not needed for these bad guys. Obama and clinton are all knowing you see.

I am surprised bamber is such a keen advocate of the death penalty too. Most civilized people are vehemently against it 

[Alex DeLarge]

I think it's pretty telling that Trump's supporters on Twitter are still attacking Clinton instead of defending Trump. Most of this election was a vote 'against' the other side. Clinton supporters voted against nationalism, a lack of experience, divisiveness, tax cuts for the rich and Trump voters voted for him against their ideas of Clinton as hugely pro-immigration, against the years of feeling ignored by the Obama administration, against a globalised economy and what they saw as the destruction of American values and culture.

This is why it's good both Trump and Obama are being extremely civil publicly, if there's anything America doesn't need now, it's division.

That's also why I disagree with terms like 'sneering London elite' and suchlike, the best way to deal with Brexit is to try and demonstrate how it will work for everyone. As a remain voter I don't feel like they're trying to get me on board with their ideas. No idea how a working-class Brummie is part of the sneering London elite when members of the Labour and Conservative parties aren't but there we are.

The 'we won get over it' attitude only works against an argument for a second referendum, we don't need playground shouting matches now, we need substantial evidence at how Brexit will work for our country and what deal we're trying to get.

[DeanoL]

5 hours ago, russycarps said:

You figure out a way of doing it without killing the innocents.

Drones are used because they are cheap. That's it.

The 'dilemma' Hillary and Obama face is how to cut costs.

While that's true to an extent, they're "cheap" in that they "cost" less US soldier lives.

[russycarps]

1 hour ago, DeanoL said:

While that's true to an extent, they're "cheap" in that they "cost" less US soldier lives.

Yep, and they are also cheaper in dollar terms. I can't remember the exact figures for a special forces soldier's training and equipment, but it's vast.

But you're right, it's much better all round just to fire a massive missile at a group of innocent and "guilty" people, than send a squadron of soldiers/spies in.

Unless you're one of the innocent people.

[bamber]

10 hours ago, russycarps said:

What? No of course I wouldn't kill innocent people just to kill a bad guy. Are you insane?

You know I probably would not press the button either, please don't label me as a murder apologist, I am no such thing. In that particular scenario, our inaction, right or wrong, means that 86 perfectly Innocent people are dead. Our inaction could rationally be described as illogical.

[bamber]

7 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

That's right out of Trump's speech writers notes. No wonder everyone wants to halt immigration from these countries.

Fuck no. I'm massively in favor of mass immigration. After 10 years of unprecedented immigration in this country, we have the lowest unemployment since the nineties and the highest total employment ever in history, so it can not be bad. The truth is though that the Americans have been targeting some very bad people, as accurately as possible. It is folly to pretend otherwise or imagine that these nasty sonsofbitches do not exist. If innocent lives are saved by killing the bad guys who would have gone on to kill them, then there is a coherent, logical argument to do so. I am basically a pacifist. so I would not be able to pull the trigger myself, but I understand that my position on this is inconsistent so I do not necessarily condemn those, like Obama, who have made arguably, a more logical decision.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

12 hours ago, bamber said:

logical argument to do so. I am basically a pacifist. so I would not be able to pull the trigger myself, but I understand that my position on this is inconsistent so I do not necessarily condemn those, like Obama, who have made arguably, a more logical decision.

Glad you said it and not me

There are many ways that the unemployment rate and net migration has been spun, and we definitely need immigration, but that's not called 'mass' immigration. Net migration has been at about 0.5% of the population at its highest point, which was last year. Not exactly mass. But it needs to also be divided between legal and illegal immigration, hence why I said in my comment that people want to halt illegal immigration from certain countries - something you confirmed by your own assessment of them all being rapists, murders, bombers etc in the countries target by drones. Imagine if these people also emigrated to the UK for example - your unemployment rates would be the least of our concerns.

My point about Trump was because you sounded a lot like him and I thought it was funny, given your previous staunch attack on people who voted for him. You're quite happy to label the targets of drones as all murders, rapists, drug runners etc, without knowing a bit about them - very Trump-esque. Your assessment of the people who are being targeted by drones is also a good reason why the EU and the USA needs better illegal immigration control, I would say.

Also you somehow have this mystic ball in front of you that can determine that the drone deaths are all bad guys, yet all the immigrants are all good guys Can I borrow it for the upcoming Wed Lottery?

True mass migration would be more like Sweden - where they've taken on 1.3 million immigrants in the last 6 years, in a country of only 9.5 million. That's real mass immigration and unsurprisingly they've experienced huge amounts of upheaval and trouble socially, with increased sexual assault (only beaten by Lesotho), increased no-go areas and burdens on local services.

With your "logic" you would expect that Sweden should be a booming economy

[The Nal]

Congrats POTUS!

[DeanoL]

It's not a celebratory award. Hitler and Stalin 'won' it too.

[Spindles]

Stalin had the best hair.

[Rose-Colored Boy]

Farage was in the running, so at least we dodged him gloating about that for the next dozen years

Edited December 7, 2016 by Zac Quinn

[The Nal]

1 hour ago, DeanoL said:

It's not a celebratory award. Hitler and Stalin 'won' it too.

When The Little Guy won it his dastardly plans weren't known.

Farage was in the running, so at least we dodged him gloating about that for the next dozen years

Hopefully he'll be murdered within that timeframe.

Edited December 7, 2016 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

20 minutes ago, The Nal said:

When The Little Guy won it his dastardly plans weren't known.

ermmm. ...

Mein Kampf publication date:  18 July 1925

Adolf Hitler: Man of the Year: 1938

 

[eFestivals]

22 minutes ago, The Nal said:

Hopefully he'll be murdered within that timeframe.

that's the problem with you Irish, you're too generous.

Some of us are hoping for a shorter time frame.

[The Nal]

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

ermmm. ...

Mein Kampf publication date:  18 July 1925

Adolf Hitler: Man of the Year: 1938

 

And?

 

 

[Gnomicide]

 

[bamber]

11 hours ago, DeanoL said:

It's not a celebratory award. Hitler and Stalin 'won' it too.

In all seriousness we need to talk about Trump's hair. Compared by Frankie Boyle to the plug-hole in an Orangutan sanctuary, it is lie. Like almost every word he speaks, a lie. Some men choose baldness, some men have baldness thrust upon them, some men attempt to hide their baldness with some whack job, spiral construction in Orange. The later are not suitable candidates for leader, yet somehow this fool has been elected President. Look at the hair. Know we are fucked.

Edited December 8, 2016 by bamber

[Gnomicide]

In today's "Of course he has" news, Trump elects climate change sceptic as Administrator Environmental Protection Agency

[eFestivals]

20 minutes ago, Gnomicide said:

In today's "Of course he has" news, Trump elects climate change sceptic as Administrator Environmental Protection Agency

it's hardly a surprise that someone with different political views appoints someone that shares those views. That's how democratic systems work.

Plus of course Trump has to deliver on his promise to expand coal mining, etc.

The more I see comments that essentially say "how dare he do something I disagree with", the more I think that the idea of the tories and Labour being basically the same party stands up. It's pretty clear that there's a huge number of people who've never felt like they've been on the losing side of a political contest before.

Yep, Trump is a climate change denier. No matter how stupid we might think that is, it's still a valid view for someone to hold even if there was irrefutable proof of that view being wrong. 

Stuff like that is put back in its box not by saying it's not allowed to be said, but by the use of a convincing counter argument.

[Rose-Colored Boy]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

it's hardly a surprise that someone with different political views appoints someone that shares those views. That's how democratic systems work.

Plus of course Trump has to deliver on his promise to expand coal mining, etc.

The more I see comments that essentially say "how dare he do something I disagree with", the more I think that the idea of the tories and Labour being basically the same party stands up. It's pretty clear that there's a huge number of people who've never felt like they've been on the losing side of a political contest before.

Yep, Trump is a climate change denier. No matter how stupid we might think that is, it's still a valid view for someone to hold even if there was irrefutable proof of that view being wrong. 

Stuff like that is put back in its box not by saying it's not allowed to be said, but by the use of a convincing counter argument.

There are convincing counter arguments to shut down climate change denial, though. Literally the world is visibly changing. But nothing will convince them.

[eFestivals]

31 minutes ago, Zac Quinn said:

There are convincing counter arguments to shut down climate change denial, though. Literally the world is visibly changing. But nothing will convince them.

I didn't say it was the right view, just one that's as valid towards the political process as any other.

[Rose-Colored Boy]

58 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I didn't say it was the right view, just one that's as valid towards the political process as any other.

No I know, I'm not talking about that, I'm saying "convincing counter arguments" are already put to climate change deniers but they refuse to accept them and lo we're back at resorting to telling them to shut up again 

[zahidf]

 

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, zahidf said:

 

ahhhh, more eternal damnation via the unproven.

As you're so keen on it, I guess you're all for Trump's suggested Muslim register on the basis of the unproven too....? No? Then stop being the same arsehole on the same arsehole basis as Trump.

The better world comes by being better, not by being the same.

Edited December 9, 2016 by eFestivals