This morning...

[Alex DeLarge]

Just now, eFestivals said:

You asked to be presented with something you claimed not to have seen - and yet those posts are peppered thru-out this thread.

It's all here for you to read, so the smart thing to do is to read it. If you've not been reading it then I'm entitled to call out your failing in reading. FFS.

Geez Neil, calm down a bit will you? I only asked for some help seeing which specific member had been saying those things because I couldn't see someone who had been angry about generalisations about the left yet simultaneously speaking generally about the right. 

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

I think there's a difference between 'disagreeing with someone's political views and lecturing about them' and 'asking the President elect of the country to stand up for all Americans after he'd said he'll electrocute gay children'.

Pence said he'd electrocute gay children did he? Care to show me? 

 

[zahidf]

15 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I don't particularly disagree, tho I think Nal's point still stands - that if it was 'the right' heckling 'left' politicians who had gone on a private night out to the theatre 'the left' would not be saying how righteous it was for that to happen. They'd be condemning it as totally out of order.

Personally I don't have much of an issue about the heckling, but neither do I have an issue with Trump defending his man about it either. If heckling is wrong then Trump has to the right to defend his man, and if heckling is right Trump has the right to defend his man.

If free speech is the righteous thing, then free speech applies to those you disagree with just as much as it applies to yourself. that means you have to accept the right of others to act in defence of their beliefs just as you might act to defend your own.

If free speech is not the righteous thing, then anyone taking that line is more like how they think Trump is than Trump really is. 

How is 'We please ask the vice president elect to uphold the rights of all people' heckling? They were perfectly respectful and a lot nicer than i would have been. After the way Trump treats hecklers 'Beat him up, ill pay the legal bills', its obvious that he hates any criticism at all.

 

Also, Bill clinton was harrased by people shouting rapist at him for the last year and Obama was heckled during the state of the union address by republicam senators. They rose above it and didnt cry about it on twitter like giant man babies.

[Alex DeLarge]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Pence said he'd electrocute gay children did he? Care to show me? 

He said we should 'convert them', of no mistake of my own I thought that electroshock was still used at the camps but I was wrong.

The point still stands though that many gay children at those camps suffer abuse and commit suicide.

[zahidf]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Pence said he'd electrocute gay children did he? Care to show me? 

 

Conversion theraphy can involve electrocuting the gay out of people. These include 14-15 year old kids.

If you have to be 100% correct, lets say he supports emotionally abusing kids to stop them being gay

Edited November 21, 2016 by zahidf

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Geez Neil, calm down a bit will you? I only asked for some help seeing which specific member had been saying those things because I couldn't see someone who had been angry about generalisations about the left yet simultaneously speaking generally about the right. 

I'm perfectly calm.

It's not me labelling tens of millions of people as "totally ignorant to the damage they are doing" without knowing the first thing about them, and pretending there's *only* better as the alternative.

Particularly when that alternative murders Muslims rather than merely wants to them to register, or sucks up to the banks while saying she's against it, or takes 25% of her campaign funds not only from foreign govts but a foreign govts that are some of the worst regimes on the planet and very definitely not about not-racist and not-sexist.

Haters are haters are haters. Trump or his detractors.

[waterfalls212434]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

You might not have, others in this thread certainly have.

And you're not slow to write them off yourself, deeming them "totally ignorant to the damage they are doing", and via your words also making clear that there cannot be any other issue of more importance in that US election. 

It's as shallow as it's possible to be.

 

By having chosen their religion with it's many abhorent tenets ... or do humans only have free will over how they vote?

Why can religionists be absolved of the abhorent they choose to associate with, but Trumpers cannot?

Why are Muslim's nuanced, but Trumpers can never be?

 

problem is mate the terrorists have nothing to do with ordinary muslims.......same with the 80s and the ira....should we have demonised all christians because the ira members happen to `claim` themselves as Christians? Also muslims are actually the group attacked and killed more then any by these terrorists (not that youd know it from western media) so claiming muslims `want` to be associated with them is just plain insulting. 

Im opposed to religion as any but  I have no problem with people personally because of their religion providing they are peaceful and dont use it to inflict prejudice and im also opposed to ignorant assholes demonising every single peaceful normal believer like that of a particular religion because of the actions of terrorists assholes they have NOTHING to do with what so ever. 

Thats some Britain first/edl mentality kind of shit right there, thats exactly the attitude and kind of speech you see spread around by those knobs, so is that what you are?  By all means criticise a religion, thats anyones right but dont claim members of that religion actively by choice associate with terrorism especially when said terrorists attack, torture and kill members of that religion in far greater numbers then anyone else!

oh and the difference is trump supporters know what he is and still choose to associate with him and his politics, majority of muslims however would love people like isis to fuck off so they could get on with their lives in peace without being demonised by people like yourself......a truly bizarre comparison tbh.





 

[waterfalls212434]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

I'm perfectly calm.

It's not me labelling tens of millions of people as "totally ignorant to the damage they are doing" without knowing the first thing about them, and pretending there's *only* better as the alternative.

Particularly when that alternative murders Muslims rather than merely wants to them to register, or sucks up to the banks while saying she's against it, or takes 25% of her campaign funds not only from foreign govts but a foreign govts that are some of the worst regimes on the planet and very definitely not about not-racist and not-sexist.

Haters are haters are haters. Trump or his detractors.

so because we dont like trump we back hiliary? thats a giant shot in the dark (and total bollocks) My opinion is they are both fucking assholes in different ways....america was fucked either way, but clinton matters not now as its not her that has the power.

Edited November 21, 2016 by waterfalls212434

[The Nal]

53 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

There's a huge difference between stopping the play to do it, and doing it at the end, after the curtain call.

Stopping, not stopping, doing it at the end, the start, whatever. Still rubbish.

[zahidf]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

 

Draining the swamp

 

[Alex DeLarge]

Just now, eFestivals said:

I'm perfectly calm.

It's not me labelling tens of millions of people as "totally ignorant to the damage they are doing" without knowing the first thing about them, and pretending there's *only* better as the alternative.

Particularly when that alternative murders Muslims rather than merely wants to them to register, or sucks up to the banks while saying she's against it, or takes 25% of her campaign funds not only from foreign govts but a foreign govts that are some of the worst regimes on the planet and very definitely not about not-racist and not-sexist.

Haters are haters are haters. Trump or his detractors.

Trump has said we should execute the families of terrorists, he's supported by the Klan is we're going there.

It's not me labelling them as that either.

I proudly hate Trump, there's nothing wrong with hating someone who admits to groping women. 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, zahidf said:

How is 'We please ask the vice president elect to uphold the rights of all people' heckling? They were perfectly respectful and a lot nicer than i would have been. After the way Trump treats hecklers 'Beat him up, ill pay the legal bills', its obvious that he hates any criticism at all.

There's a lot to be admired about what happened in the theatre.

But nothing about that means its wrong for Trump to defend his man, does it? Please tell me how.

The actors can condemn Trump. Trump can condemn the actors.  Either they're both allowable, or both are out of order.

It's only fascists who say only the fascists should be allowed their voice.

 

4 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Also, Bill clinton was harrased by people shouting rapist at him for the last year and Obama was heckled during the state of the union address by republicam senators. They rose above it and didnt cry about it on twitter like giant man babies.

So Trump is now a man baby too for defending his view.

Care to tell me why you're posting here, again? It must be cause you're a man baby.

It's only fascists who say only the fascists should be allowed their voice.

 

[Alex DeLarge]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

There's a lot to be admired about what happened in the theatre.

But nothing about that means its wrong for Trump to defend his man, does it? Please tell me how.

The actors can condemn Trump. Trump can condemn the actors.  Either they're both allowable, or both are out of order.

Trump has every right to condemn the cast, it just seems a bit silly to personally insult the cast/ play and start a Twitter argument at 3 in the morning. 

He also went off at SNL for being biased against him, I don't think he realises the election is over and he can't just scream 'but Hillary!' anymore.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

He said we should 'convert them', of no mistake of my own I thought that electroshock was still used at the camps but I was wrong.

The point still stands though that many gay children at those camps suffer abuse and commit suicide.

So you lied. I'm glad we've cleared that part up ... tho why are Trump's lies bad, again?

Meanwhile, his view of gays is his opinion and yours is yours.  Care to tell me why you take is indisputably right, to make his indisputably wrong?

Just to be clear, I side with you on this - but people are allowed different opinions. If they weren't, they'd be no election to be discussing.

[DeanoL]

23 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I don't particularly disagree, tho I think Nal's point still stands - that if it was 'the right' heckling 'left' politicians who had gone on a private night out to the theatre 'the left' would not be saying how righteous it was for that to happen. They'd be condemning it as totally out of order.

Personally I don't have much of an issue about the heckling, but neither do I have an issue with Trump defending his man about it either. If heckling is wrong then Trump has to the right to defend his man, and if heckling is right Trump has the right to defend his man.

If free speech is the righteous thing, then free speech applies to those you disagree with just as much as it applies to yourself. that means you have to accept the right of others to act in defence of their beliefs just as you might act to defend your own.

If free speech is not the righteous thing, then anyone taking that line is more like how they think Trump is than Trump really is. 

There wasn't any heckling though (unless you're counting the booing of the audience, which the performers specifically asked people to not do). There was a polite, non-aggressively worded request made at the end of the show.

Trump can defend his man, sure. But he didn't. He didn't address the point. He didn't say "Mike Pence is a great friend of minorities and these people have nothing to fear from me or him". That's defending. Instead he said they shouldn't be allowed to say such things in a theatre and demanded an apology. Trump was trying to actively shut down that freedom of speech.

If it went the other way, Left on Right, I think people would support it. The problem is, and I'm generalising about the Right again, if/when the Right do something like that, it's rarely done with such grace. It probably would be done more aggressively. Or in the middle of the performance, ruining it for everyone else. Not making it up, thinking of Kanye.

I'd still applaud it if they'd actively insulted and genuinely heckled Pence. Can't stand him. But in that case I'd be with you that Trump calling them out as it being out-of-order would be fine. But it wasn't. It was perfectly 'in order'. There was nothing nasty about it. That's why it's a bit scary. If that level of discourse is beyond the line, then the freedom of future political debate under his administration is not looking great.

[zahidf]

Oh ffs. Im not saying Trump isnt allowed to say stuff. Im saying the presidential office should have some dignity to it, and his reactions tell us how think skinned he is and how undignfied it will be for the next 4 years.

[zahidf]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

So you lied. I'm glad we've cleared that part up ... tho why are Trump's lies bad, again?

Meanwhile, his view of gays is his opinion and yours is yours.  Care to tell me why you take is indisputably right, to make his indisputably wrong?

Just to be clear, I side with you on this - but people are allowed different opinions. If they weren't, they'd be no election to be discussing.

People are allowed to find his views in gay people disgusting and worrying, especially as he has executive power now. 

[zahidf]

2 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

There wasn't any heckling though (unless you're counting the booing of the audience, which the performers specifically asked people to not do). There was a polite, non-aggressively worded request made at the end of the show.

Trump can defend his man, sure. But he didn't. He didn't address the point. He didn't say "Mike Pence is a great friend of minorities and these people have nothing to fear from me or him". That's defending. Instead he said they shouldn't be allowed to say such things in a theatre and demanded an apology. Trump was trying to actively shut down that freedom of speech.

If it went the other way, Left on Right, I think people would support it. The problem is, and I'm generalising about the Right again, if/when the Right do something like that, it's rarely done with such grace. It probably would be done more aggressively. Or in the middle of the performance, ruining it for everyone else. Not making it up, thinking of Kanye.

I'd still applaud it if they'd actively insulted and genuinely heckled Pence. Can't stand him. But in that case I'd be with you that Trump calling them out as it being out-of-order would be fine. But it wasn't. It was perfectly 'in order'. There was nothing nasty about it. That's why it's a bit scary. If that level of discourse is beyond the line, then the freedom of future political debate under his administration is not looking great.

Good point. Trump cant take any criticism, at all, and will try to shut it down. 

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Draining the swamp

 

a much cheaper bribe over a much more minor thing than Bill's bribe to his rape accuser with his wife's blessing.

But only Trump is anything bad?

 

 

 

 

[DeanoL]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The actors can condemn Trump. Trump can condemn the actors.  Either they're both allowable, or both are out of order.

It's only fascists who say only the fascists should be allowed their voice.

The actors didn't condemn Trump. Trump acted like they had and demanded an apology.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Oh ffs. Im not saying Trump isnt allowed to say stuff. Im saying the presidential office should have some dignity to it, and his reactions tell us how think skinned he is and how undignfied it will be for the next 4 years.

you don't have any dignity, so why do you think Trump should have?

You and Trump are like brothers in arms, championing the same ideas around different themes.

 

[Alex DeLarge]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

So you lied. I'm glad we've cleared that part up ... tho why are Trump's lies bad, again?

Meanwhile, his view of gays is his opinion and yours is yours.  Care to tell me why you take is indisputably right, to make his indisputably wrong?

Just to be clear, I side with you on this - but people are allowed different opinions. If they weren't, they'd be no election to be discussing.

Because I apologised for my mistake as I'd read it on a shit internet meme. Also I'm not the President of the United States.

He can have any opinion of gay people he wants, but he acted on something which led to the suicide of children. That's what I disagree with.

And I know you agree Neil haha, I love this thread because I love having my opinions challenged. You've made me see things in a different way.

[The Nal]

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Oh ffs. Im not saying Trump isnt allowed to say stuff. Im saying the presidential office should have some dignity to it, and his reactions tell us how think skinned he is and how undignfied it will be for the next 4 years.

That time has passed, years ago. Watergate, 49 year old Bill Clinton putting cigar holders into 21 year old interns and jizzing all over them etc etc. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

Just now, DeanoL said:

The actors didn't condemn Trump. Trump acted like they had and demanded an apology.

The actors condemned Trump's man. Trump defended his man.

Which is so very different from Trump and every single one of his supporters being condemned as worthless human beings, of course - and where it's just not on for anyone to defend the *FACT* that they're not.

[zahidf]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

you don't have any dignity, so why do you think Trump should have?

You and Trump are like brothers in arms, championing the same ideas around different themes.

 

Oh ffs. Im not president of the US. Im comparing him with other former presidents, not people who post online.

Edited November 21, 2016 by zahidf