This morning...

[zahidf]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

The actors condemned Trump's man. Trump defended his man.

Which is so very different from Trump and every single one of his supporters being condemned as worthless human beings, of course - and where it's just not on for anyone to defend the *FACT* that they're not.

Trump has proven in word and action what a worthless human being he is.

Trump voters have one big black mark against them. If coupled with racism influencing their vote, then they are worthless to.

[zahidf]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The actors condemned Trump's man. Trump defended his man.

Which is so very different from Trump and every single one of his supporters being condemned as worthless human beings, of course - and where it's just not on for anyone to defend the *FACT* that they're not.

What in their statement did you think was so offensive?

 

Id like to point out that Pence had no problem with it as well.

[Alex DeLarge]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The actors condemned Trump's man. Trump defended his man.

Which is so very different from Trump and every single one of his supporters being condemned as worthless human beings, of course - and where it's just not on for anyone to defend the *FACT* that they're not.

Where did they condemn Pence? The speech was very welcoming as far as I can recall, they said they were worried he wouldn't speak for them when the job of VP is to speak for all Americans. They tried to get their opinion across in a non-aggressive way that suited the political themes of the play.

Pence reacted in a mature way, Trump should learn to stop the petty Twitter insults.

[The Nal]

9 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Oh ffs. Im not president of the US. Im comparing him with other former presidents, 

 

Trump is an immature c**t alright but the darling "Big Dog" on the left was also immature c**t. Good friends they are!

 

Edited November 21, 2016 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Because I apologised for my mistake as I'd read it on a shit internet meme. Also I'm not the President of the United States.

1. perhaps make a better effort than Trump in reaching demonising conclusions, to make you better than Trump?

2. other people are held to higher standards than you apply to yourself?

 

2 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

He can have any opinion of gay people he wants, but he acted on something which led to the suicide of children. That's what I disagree with.

Well of course no one is going to agree that suicides of children are a good thing, but don't the parents of those children hold a greater responsibility? And of course kids commit suicide because they're gay too, and not only because someone thinks they can be stopped being gay.

Has Pence's programme resulted in more or less suicide deaths? Without that info what he's been doing can't be deemed as bad on that suicide basis.

I don't like anything of the little I know about that view of gays, but I do know that democratic politics is about different views on things. Thinking it should only operate within the boundaries you set isn't what it's about.

 

2 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

And I know you agree Neil haha, I love this thread because I love having my opinions challenged. You've made me see things in a different way.

I'm glad about that. That's been my intention.

If we are to have the sort of better world were we might not end up with Trump as President we need hope and not hate.

[waterfalls212434]

1 minute ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Where did they condemn Pence? The speech was very welcoming as far as I can recall, they said they were worried he wouldn't speak for them when the job of VP is to speak for all Americans. They tried to get their opinion across in a non-aggressive way that suited the political themes of the play.

Pence reacted in a mature way, Trump should learn to stop the petty Twitter insults.

the way trump reacts to even the slightest bit of criticism is laughable for someone in his position, you think presidents before him would even take notice of such stuff let alone `tweet` demanding an apology....water off a ducks back for them, such criticism is part of the position, trump however seems to rise to it all, incredibly thin skin for the ceo he is let alone a president....makes you wonder how the hell hes going to manage diplomacy at an international level when actors in a play expressing themselves winds him up so much....

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Oh ffs. Im not president of the US. Im comparing him with other former presidents, not people who post online.

when you start thinking that others are supposed to reach higher standards than you apply to yourself, you've got no basis to condemn. ;rolleyes:

 

[zahidf]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

when you start thinking that others are supposed to reach higher standards than you apply to yourself, you've got no basis to condemn. ;rolleyes:

 

Why? We elect leaders to show us the way and to inspire us to be better people.

It rarely works out that way alas

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, zahidf said:

What in their statement did you think was so offensive?

 

Id like to point out that Pence had no problem with it as well.

Where  did I say it was offensive? I didn't.

I said the actors had their say, and Trump had his say.

There's fuck all wrong about an exchange of views in a democracy, unless you want to tell me that some people are not allowed to express their views...?

Edited November 21, 2016 by eFestivals

[zahidf]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

1. perhaps make a better effort than Trump in reaching demonising conclusions, to make you better than Trump?

2. other people are held to higher standards than you apply to yourself?

 

Well of course no one is going to agree that suicides of children are a good thing, but don't the parents of those children hold a greater responsibility? And of course kids commit suicide because they're gay too, and not only because someone thinks they can be stopped being gay.

Has Pence's programme resulted in more or less suicide deaths? Without that info what he's been doing can't be deemed as bad on that suicide basis.

I don't like anything of the little I know about that view of gays, but I do know that democratic politics is about different views on things. Thinking it should only operate within the boundaries you set isn't what it's about.

 

I'm glad about that. That's been my intention.

If we are to have the sort of better world were we might not end up with Trump as President we need hope and not hate.

So you think more funding into gay conversion theraphy (Pence's position) is perfectly fine, and shouldnt be criticised?

[zahidf]

Just now, eFestivals said:

Where  did I say it was offensive? I doidn't.

I said the actors had their say, and Trump had his say.

There's fuck all wrong about an exchange of views in a democracy, unless you want to tell me that some people are not allowed to express their views...?

That is literally what Trump said and why i am criticising him.

 

He said they shouldnt express their negative views at all. I am saying that he can say what he wants on twitter, and i can call him a big undignified man baby for rising to every provocation.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Why? We elect leaders to show us the way and to inspire us to be better people.

It rarely works out that way alas

so now you're a sheep, and only to follow your leader?

Funnily enough, i'd already noticed.

Engaging your own brain and being a sovereign human being responsible for your own thoughts and actions would be a much better thing, but if you buy moron you buy moron just like you say Trumpers do.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

That is literally what Trump said and why i am criticising him.

 

He said they shouldnt express their negative views at all. I am saying that he can say what he wants on twitter, and i can call him a big undignified man baby for rising to every provocation.

So you don't actually have an angle on the incident in the end, and all you have is to play the man because he said something and you don't think he should be allowed to say something. 

Well, that's raised the level of the debate. :lol:

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, zahidf said:

So you think more funding into gay conversion theraphy (Pence's position) is perfectly fine, and shouldnt be criticised?

I'm perfectly happy for those who disagree with Pence to criticise him for it.

I'm no less happy for those - such as Trump - who disagree with criticisms of Pence for that (and/or the time and place of that criticism) to make their own criticisms.

I believe the best ideas will win out in a battle of ideas.

I don't believe in fascism where someone appoints themselves as arbiter of what is allowed to be said.

[DeanoL]

17 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The actors condemned Trump's man. Trump defended his man.

Except this isn't "condeming":

Quote

 

“Vice-president Mike Pence, I see you walking out, but I hope you will hear us, just a few moments.”

“There is nothing to boo here, ladies and gentlemen, we are sharing a story of love,”

“Mike Pence, we welcome you here. We are the diverse Americans who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us, our planet, our children, our parents.”

“Or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights … we hope that this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and work on behalf of all of us,”

“We thank you for sharing this wonderful American story, told by a diverse group of men and women of different colors, creeds and orientations"

 

And this isn't defending:

Quote

“Our wonderful future V.P. Mike Pence was harassed last night at the theater by the cast of Hamilton, cameras blazing.This should not happen!” “The Theater must always be a safe and special place.The cast of Hamilton was very rude last night to a very good man, Mike Pence. Apologize!”

Trump offered nothing in defense of what had been said. He claimed it shouldn't have been allowed to happen and demanded an apology (because that's how it worked when he was in WWE).

It's the "you can't tolerate intolerence" thing. Trump was trying to shut down the freedom of speech of someone else. You can't defend that using the argument *for* free speech. If it had been aggressive, then that would have been a reasonable response. If Trump had even said, mockingly, that of course he would protect the rights of everyone and the environment, and that there's no reason to be making such proclamations, that would have been an actual defense.

But what happened was that they said something, and he said "you're not allowed to say that". And being told you're not allowed to say something by the future President is a much bigger deal than some random internet troll saying it.

[DeanoL]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I don't believe in fascism where someone appoints themselves as arbiter of what is allowed to be said.

You mean like Donald Trump did, in response to what was said by the case of Hamilton?

Because if that's what makes a fascist you've just called Trump one, surely?

[Alex DeLarge]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

1. perhaps make a better effort than Trump in reaching demonising conclusions, to make you better than Trump?

2. other people are held to higher standards than you apply to yourself?

I didn't reach a demonising conclusion, I'd fell into the trap of reading misinformation online and genuinely wouldn't have repeated it here.

And yes, I do expect those running for the leader of a country/ those elected to run to fact-check what they're talking about. I try to as much as possible but my opinion isn't an influential one. I also hold them to the standard of having political experience and being a great, intelligent public speaker which are traits I do not possess. It's just as I'd expect a Doctor to be well-researched into medicine or a factory worker to know about the machinery they use.

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Well of course no one is going to agree that suicides of children are a good thing, but don't the parents of those children hold a greater responsibility? And of course kids commit suicide because they're gay too, and not only because someone thinks they can be stopped being gay.

Children wouldn't commit suicide for being gay if they weren't stigmatised for it. Putting them into camps and abusing them adds to the shame.

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Has Pence's programme resulted in more or less suicide deaths? Without that info what he's been doing can't be deemed as bad on that suicide basis.

I don't like anything of the little I know about that view of gays, but I do know that democratic politics is about different views on things. Thinking it should only operate within the boundaries you set isn't what it's about.

The data I could find said that those who have had gay conversion therapy are around 9 times more likely to commit suicide and are around 6 times as likely to have depression than those who have not. I agree with the major political parties having an open, honest discussion about things but the evidence clearly shows that not only does gay conversion therapy not work but it also actively harms those forced  through it.

 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Except this isn't "condeming":

Ok, not "condemning" but "an exchange of views".

It makes no difference ultimately, unless some views are not allowed just because you don't like them...?

 

4 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

And this isn't defending:

Trump offered nothing in defense of what had been said. He claimed it shouldn't have been allowed to happen and demanded an apology (because that's how it worked when he was in WWE).

It's the "you can't tolerate intolerence" thing. Trump was trying to shut down the freedom of speech of someone else. You can't defend that using the argument *for* free speech. If it had been aggressive, then that would have been a reasonable response. If Trump had even said, mockingly, that of course he would protect the rights of everyone and the environment, and that there's no reason to be making such proclamations, that would have been an actual defense.

But what happened was that they said something, and he said "you're not allowed to say that". And being told you're not allowed to say something by the future President is a much bigger deal than some random internet troll saying it.

Going to the theatre for a private night out isn't the normal political forum. If an audience screamed 'rapist' at Bill Clinton at the theatre, it's no more of less out of place than what happened around Pence.

To me, having to get into what happened at the theatre and Trump's response to it says that there's not actually much genuine ammo for attacks on Trump, and that people are reaching desperately for anything they can find.

i have to laugh at someone coming in general from a "Trump isn't allowed to say that" angle complaining about Trump saying "you're not allowed to say that". The same standards of behaviour should apply equally to each side.

There might be a higher moral ground somewhere, but I can't see anyone here looking too hard for it.

[DeanoL]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

i have to laugh at someone coming in general from a "Trump isn't allowed to say that" angle complaining about Trump saying "you're not allowed to say that". The same standards of behaviour should apply equally to each side.

My position always has been "you can say anything you want except for telling other people they can't say something". It has to work that way, else you're just trapped in circular reasoning.

[The Nal]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

There might be a higher moral ground somewhere, but I can't see anyone here looking too hard for it.

There isn't one. Both sides are wrong. Trumps response wasn't the best response. Perhaps inviting Pence for a talk after the show may have been better. Doorstepping him from the stage while he walked out with his kids wasn't the best way to go about it.

My position always has been "you can say anything you want except for telling other people they can't say something". It has to work that way, else you're just trapped in circular reasoning.

Theres a time and a place though. By your reasoning, you're ok with the Westboro Baptist Church turning up to protest at gay peoples funerals. Or the NRA nutters turning up in towns after mass shootings. 

Sure its their right but, nah.

Edited November 21, 2016 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

I didn't reach a demonising conclusion, I'd fell into the trap of reading misinformation online and genuinely wouldn't have repeated it here.

People say that Trump played his supporters. People are trying to play people like you, too. You should keep that in mind.

 

11 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

And yes, I do expect those running for the leader of a country/ those elected to run to fact-check what they're talking about.

I presume you're on 'the left' and quite possibly a fan of Corbyn. Get back to me when you've got him and McDonnell doing that.
(I can give you a long long list straight from the top of my head, if you want to try me )

(Or May, or Cameron, or Clegg, or Farage, etc, etc, etc).

Meanwhile, you didn't fact-check your own words. Double standards!

C'mon - we all know that *ALL* politicians are self-serving liars. That's why they're politicians. Expecting anything much different is unrealistic.

Rise above the lies of ALL politicians by thinking for yourself and acting better than you think they do.

 

11 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

I try to as much as possible but my opinion isn't an influential one. I also hold them to the standard of having political experience and being a great, intelligent public speaker which are traits I do not possess. It's just as I'd expect a Doctor to be well-researched into medicine or a factory worker to know about the machinery they use.

But the whole point about Trump is that he's not that polished politician. 'The people' have rejected the idea of a polished politician as their president, wanting the exact opposite of that instead.

It's no less of a valid want from a democracy than your own of each politician being perfection on a stick.

[The Nal]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

But the whole point about Trump is that he's not that polished politician. 'The people' have rejected the idea of a polished politician as their president, wanting the exact opposite of that instead.

Indeed. This what the people democratically voted for.

Edited November 21, 2016 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

21 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Children wouldn't commit suicide for being gay if they weren't stigmatised for it. Putting them into camps and abusing them adds to the shame.

I don't think that's necessarily true. People have an image of themselves, and it can be mind-twisting merely for them to become aware that they're not the person they thought they were.

 

24 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

The data I could find said that those who have had gay conversion therapy are around 9 times more likely to commit suicide and are around 6 times as likely to have depression than those who have not. I agree with the major political parties having an open, honest discussion about things but the evidence clearly shows that not only does gay conversion therapy not work but it also actively harms those forced  through it.

Well, that's very sad.

The 'rights and wrongs' of being gay has been an issue for a myriad of societies for several millennia, and it's not yet a settled issued in everyone's mind. Hopefully we'll get there one day.

In the meantime they'll be those with views like Pence who are misguided rather than pure evil, and the democratic process is one of the ways that will help the issue get settled.

In the meantime the traffic won't just be one way, and we all have to deal with that. We don't deal with it by suppressing the views of those like Pence but by challenging them. 

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, The Nal said:

Indeed. This what the people democratically voted for.

Oh, I know it's shit, but it's the different shit people wanted.

In a democracy, that's how it works. Sometimes the morons win, and some of the things you like get reversed.

If anyone ever comes up with a better way I'm all for it, but until that time we have have at least 4 years of Trump as president to be worked thru.

He's not going away, sometimes the people you don't like win. Losers on 'the left' have to suck it up no less than they'd expect 'the rich' to suck up higher taxes, it's no different at all.

 

 

[Alex DeLarge]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

People say that Trump played his supporters. People are trying to play people like you, too. You should keep that in mind.

I'm sure everyone has read misinformation somewhere online and repeated it.

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I presume you're on 'the left' and quite possibly a fan of Corbyn. Get back to me when you've got him and McDonnell doing that.
(I can give you a long long list straight from the top of my head, if you want to try me )

I'm not really a Corbyn fan if I'm honest, but the fact that Corbyn is incompetent doesn't give Trump a free pass. McDonnell is a vile piece of work.

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

(Or May, or Cameron, or Clegg, or Farage, etc, etc, etc).

Meanwhile, you didn't fact-check your own words. Double standards!

Yes, I do hold the President Elect at a higher standard than myself. I'm very unfit to lead a country.

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

C'mon - we all know that *ALL* politicians are self-serving liars. That's why they're politicians. Expecting anything much different is unrealistic.

Rise above the lies of ALL politicians by thinking for yourself and acting better than you think they do.

I am rising above Trump and co. by apologising for getting something wrong. I do think for myself as much as possible.

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

But the whole point about Trump is that he's not that polished politician. 'The people' have rejected the idea of a polished politician as their president, wanting the exact opposite of that instead.

It's no less of a valid want from a democracy than your own of each politician being perfection on a stick.

I don't want each politican to be perfection on a stick, I would like them to have a bit of responsibility though. 

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I don't think that's necessarily true. People have an image of themselves, and it can be mind-twisting merely for them to become aware that they're not the person they thought they were.

I guess we'll never know for sure, but gay teenagers are more likely to commit suicide if they've been through conversion. It also applies with being shamed by their parents or peers. 

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Well, that's very sad.

The 'rights and wrongs' of being gay has been an issue for a myriad of societies for several millennia, and it's not yet a settled issued in everyone's mind. Hopefully we'll get there one day.

In the meantime they'll be those with views like Pence who are misguided rather than pure evil, and the democratic process is one of the ways that will help the issue get settled.

In the meantime the traffic won't just be one way, and we all have to deal with that. We don't deal with it by suppressing the views of those like Pence but by challenging them. 

Hopefully after Trump's 'transgender people can use whatever bathroom they want' and 'gay marriage should stick', he isn't going to enact any of Pence's wacky ideas about gay people. It doesn't seem like his priority at all which is reassuring.