This morning...

[waterfalls212434]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I don't really get the point of this. Well I do, actually. It's another hate stick

We can only hypothesise, and of course for anyone who's going to bother, they'll be a Trump hater and will dream up whatever they want.

And it just ends up as an attempt to smear Trump over something that's not happened.

It may or may not have turned out how you think (no matter what you think ), but this is an attempt to stir hatred on the basis of nothing at all. 

People can only be held to account for what they do, not what someone might invent them doing.

Im actually going on what many of his supporters in particular the more extreme minded claimed themselves they would do if they felt the election had been stolen from them in anyway......how can you argue with the horses mouth? and no its not an attempt to stir hatred my comment was merely an interesting idea of how things would look now if the roles were reversed

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

Im actually going on what many of his supporters in particular the more extreme minded claimed themselves they would do if they felt the election had been stolen from them in anyway......how can you argue with the horses mouth? and no its not an attempt to stir hatred my comment was merely an interesting idea of how things would look now if the roles were reversed

Mouthy gits prove little tho I'm not arguing with the horses mouth, I'm pointing out that people can't be found guilty of something which never happened.

If it does ever happen it'll have to be dealt with then.

In the meantime throwing this stuff around doesn't help. It just gives people yet another reason to be hateful towards Trump and Trumpers, but not even for a good reason this time.

Hold him to account on what he does, and not on bullshit.

[zahidf]

23 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I don't really get the point of this. Well I do, actually. It's another hate stick

We can only hypothesise, and of course for anyone who's going to bother, they'll be a Trump hater and will dream up whatever they want.

And it just ends up as an attempt to smear Trump over something that's not happened.

It may or may not have turned out how you think (no matter what you think ), but this is an attempt to stir hatred on the basis of nothing at all. 

People can only be held to account for what they do, not what someone might invent them doing.

He did say second amendment people should stop Clinton being president

 

And predicted violence if he lost

And saying he woukd refuse to concede if he lost

[eFestivals]

Just now, zahidf said:

He did say second amendment people should stop Clinton being president

 

And predicted violence if he lost

And saying he woukd refuse to concede if he lost

but he didn't lose so it became irrelevant and its now in the past.

Are we now as low as saying Trump and pals should be strung up because of an end-game scenario you invented in your head? Really??

I appreciate the dangerous situation that scenario represents, btw, but there's fuck all that can be done about it until after Trump is out of power now I reckon - so just be thankful that there hasn't been civil strife on the streets of the USA and move on, FFS.

BTW, your head is really going to explode if he appoints Mitt Romney as SoS, isn't it?.

This person is a filthy fascist decent normal liberal republican, and I demand he's not allowed in govt.

[The Nal]

1 hour ago, waterfalls212434 said:

for all the grief being given to people for dissing trump etc....billy bragg has a good point here......tell me there wouldn't be widespread national civil disorder on a `national guard being deployed` level right now if trump lost despite winning the popular vote by such a margin? I think Donald has got off pretty damn lightly so far especially considering his appointments, for all the whining about how difficult a time hes supposedly getting from us `liberals` Damn sure theres no militias going round with guns as would be the case if it was the other way round.
 

 

 

Issue being with that is the election was not about winning the popular vote. Its a nonsense argument. 

Both candidates campaigned to win the electoral vote. As has been the norm for hundreds of years. We've no idea if Trump would have won the popular vote. 

If, say, Chelsea win the league this year but actually win less matches than the team finishing 2nd, say its Man City, people won't be looking for City to get the trophy.  

Edited November 21, 2016 by The Nal

[zahidf]

 

[zahidf]

 

[zahidf]

 

[DeanoL]

They don't even mention Trump.

[zahidf]

23 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

They don't even mention Trump.

 

[midnight]

On 20 November 2016 at 9:00 AM, eFestivals said:

I sympathise with your situation Kat, you know I do.

Yes, I do know, and I wasn't targeting you at all with my post. But as you are the only one to engage with it, I guess I have to put my response here, although most of it isn't to do with your comments.

But understand that just as you have your priorities about you, others have their priorities about them. Both of you are equally permitted to pursue your wants.

I understand that, absolutely. But with the right to chose comes the responsibility to consider the consequences of your choice. 

I, for one, would appreciate a clear message from the people who consider themselves on the left what their wants out of this Brexit situation actually are, and how they can be furthered by what is happening now. Based on the assumption that they didn't believe in the rhetoric about thousands of decent jobs becoming available if only we got rid of immigrants and that there would be an extra £350 mil to play around with every week. I'd feel a bit better if I had good reason to believe that something positive will come out of this. 

Any change of priorities always has someone on the shit end of the stick, that's just how it is.

Yes, of course, and there is no particular reason why that shouldn’t be me. I know I’m not special. But it is adding insult to injury to tell those people who do get the shitty end of the stick that they are scaremongering and only bleating on about something that doesn't really matter or exist. Which is what is happening a lot now, to anyone who is worried about the outcomes of these developments (and for the record, I'm not just worried for my precious self, nor does my job depend on EU trade of funding). To paraphrase the Headless Chicken joke someone posted earlier: If you set the cat amongst the pigeons, can you then blame the pigeons for flattering about nervously? And is it really so unreasonable to ask people who sided with Farage and his agenda on Brexit for their reasons why? Why is the retort so often a defensive "how dare you calling me out on this?” instead of giving a good reason, if there was one?  I'm not just referring to this particular thread, btw, this is a general theme in debates on the topic now, even in places like the Guardian. 

If Corbyn got elected it would be "the rich" on the shit end of the stick, but no one like zahidf would be saying that's not allowed to happen.

Nah, sorry. Corbyn won't get elected, but even if he was, the rich would be just fine. They are now, and they always will be, as long as we are only tinkering at the edges of the system, which is all someone like Corbyn could ever do. It might get a bit more difficult for some of the nearly/not quite rich in the middle - perhaps. That will then look like the FT article on the couple from Croydon, who at £200k income considered themselves squeezed middle. Some funny comments on that one I remember, but let's re-discuss more sympathetically after Corbyn’s victory and check in on them then.  In-between, in the real world, one of the most depressing things about the whole Brexit/Trump votes business, as I see it, is that many of the understandably frustrated poorer people seem to have tried to give the establishment (be that the EU/Cameron/the US government or whatever) a well deserved black eye, but they've probably knocked out their own front teeth in order to do so. The black eye heals quickly, but the missing teeth will be a bother for decades. 

i'm not trying to justify anything about brexit, I'm simply pointing out that people are allowed to make these sorts of choices.

They are entitled to their choice, or vote. (Alas, I got no vote in this, but have to suck it up now anyway.) Whoever has a right to chose is to some extend responsible for the consequences of their choices. So I hope the people who made a choice that pulls the rug from under someone else’s feet, be that on purpose or just an unwanted side effect of their priorities, will at least stop telling them then to  “cheer up, might never happen", particularly not after it has happened.

 

Generally speaking, and not as a response to anything in your post: 

No amount of time will ever make me British. I used to find it mildly boring when people who I’d just met immediately asked me where I came from (“London". "Yeah, but where are you REALLY from?”), now I’m actually dreading that ubiquitous question. A few weeks ago, I picked up a copy of the DM on the tube - thinking it was the Standard, I have some very daft moments - and I read on with a mix of horror and fascination, you could barely turn a page without yet another article about the evils that immigrants, immigration, refugees inflict on this country, on and on and on it went, and that’s just one day, and without the truly scary comments section under their online articles…. Farage is now apparently the self appointed leader of the fight against free movement and any potential watering down a “soft” option might bring. The coverage of the recent High Court judgement speaks for itself. The woman who brought the case is now taking advice from the police, regarding her safety. 

Corny but true - I feel no longer welcome; I know others who feel just the same, but won’t say so in public, as that will only be booed (see Question Time), or dismissed as overly sensitive. Last time I found myself in a comparative political situation, I packed up and left to find a home elsewhere, but then I had youth on my side - and no strings; 24 years later I have a child at school here who feels quite patriotically British (the irony!) and most of my other emotional ties are here as well, so I guess I have to bear it, at least until my kid is old enough to make his own choices. But the sense of belonging I’d developed is gone, and I don’t have much fight left in me - something’s broken. With an election, there'd at least be hope that things could turn in a few years time (Donald? I’m old enough to remember Ronald and some of his antics!), but the ripples of this ref result will now go on through what remains of my life. There will not be another chance. 

There, I’ve said it. I’ll let it go now, I don’t think I am expressing myself very well, I probably don’t have enough zest left for this type of debate. C’est la vie.

 

[BlocCapacitator]

8 hours ago, zahidf said:

 

Cnn??

Edited November 22, 2016 by BlocCapacitator

[eFestivals]

6 hours ago, midnight said:

I understand that, absolutely. But with the right to chose comes the responsibility to consider the consequences of your choice. 

I, for one, would appreciate a clear message from the people who consider themselves on the left what their wants out of this Brexit situation actually are, and how they can be furthered by what is happening now. Based on the assumption that they didn't believe in the rhetoric about thousands of decent jobs becoming available if only we got rid of immigrants and that there would be an extra £350 mil to play around with every week. I'd feel a bit better if I had good reason to believe that something positive will come out of this. 

why would a clear statement from the left help? They're not in charge.

But, how would a clear statement from the right help either? They want to have the power to control new immigration &/or trading relationships, and nothing of that directly effects you.

I recognise that some side issues might impact on you, but you have aquired rights via your residence which can legally counter them. If you choose not to collect those rights, it's your choice to take those side issues.

The fact that you might not like their rational doesn't really matter. They probably don't think much of yours, either, and all there is to this is in the end is the total of the individual opinions. It's that, or it's no democracy.

At the very core of democracy is an acceptance that the 'idiots' have the right to win. Who the 'idiots' are is merely decided by where a person's own thoughts are.

[zahidf]

Fuck off

 

[eFestivals]

6 hours ago, midnight said:

(Alas, I got no vote in this, but have to suck it up now anyway.)

That's a consequence of your own choice to not acquire citizenship, isn't it (and with 20-ish years to have done it)? You've said your life is tied to the UK, but you don't wish to tie yourself to the UK. You can't really blame others for your choices.

My bruv is in the opposite situation to you, living in Germany with a German wife. As soon as the ref was being raised, I was suggesting to him that he secures his life in Germany by formally acquiring the rights he needs to do that.

It's an inconvenience and a new one since EU free movement came about - but that's all it is, and it's also been the standard in all of the world forever.

Politics has always been about a battle of direction, where opposing politics might reverse the path of the political opposition. Some win, some lose, some scream it's not fair, and life goes on.

[zahidf]

https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/800892023276453889

 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

Why do we even have politicians and government??!?

Just let twitter and memes run the world and be done with!

[Winslow Leach]

7 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Why do we even have politicians and government??!?

Just let twitter and memes run the world and be done with!

First sensible suggestion you've made tbh.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

5 minutes ago, Winslow Leach said:

First sensible suggestion you've made tbh.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not?

It's difficult over text

Edited November 22, 2016 by Cornelius_Fudge

[waterfalls212434]

17 hours ago, eFestivals said:

but he didn't lose so it became irrelevant and its now in the past.

.

The point was for all the stick you and others are giving critics of trump IF it had been the other way round the alt right lot who back trump would have behaved far far worse so please stop making out the man is being treated so badly ffs.

[eFestivals]

53 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

The point was for all the stick you and others are giving critics of trump IF it had been the other way round the alt right lot who back trump would have behaved far far worse so please stop making out the man is being treated so badly ffs.

I'm pointing out that YOU are doing the exact same as you say is so heinous when Trump does it. 

FFS.

Hope, not hate as big as Trump's.

[Homer]

This song is such an awesome 'response' to those tw@ts that vandalised MCA's memorial.

Especially as MCA himself (unless I'm mistaken - I'm sure he's the one with the deeper voice) opens up with:

Brownstones, water towers, trees, skyscrapers
Writers, prize fighters and Wall Street traders
We come together on the subway cars
Diversity unified, whoever you are

 

Edited November 22, 2016 by Homer

[The Nal]

Was really hoping Trump was going to try and toss her in jail. Would've made for great telly.

Edited November 22, 2016 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

19 minutes ago, The Nal said:

Was really hoping Trump was going to try and toss her in jail. Would've made for great telly.

It's funny how that forgotten promise of Trump's doesn't doubt the certainty in some that he's the next Hitler, doesn't it?

He's just an over-privileged kiddie with an over-inflated sense of entitlement (sounds like someone we know here ) and who because of that thinks it'll be easy to run the world america, just like running a company.

Who knows, perhaps he'll even be right with that, cos it's a long time since a country has operated like that, of trying to suppress the commercial competition &/or rig the markets in its favour. In theory that should bring the USA some benefit, if only in the short term.

I don't think the worry is so much about him failing, I think the worry is him succeeding.

[bamber]

Obama, was not perfect. His tenure as President was sadly marred by insurmountable obstacles. But he was clearly, a sane, liberal, intelligent human being who loved and understood music. This will not be happening again anytime soon. Dark days ahead. I cry for what we have lost. (Jill Scott for West Holts 2017 BTW)

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by bamber