Radiohead Headlining 2017

[T-Mouse]

9 hours ago, jonodillieono said:

If he has one my friend will have the other if it's still available

Sorry mate the tickets have already gone apologies I wish I had more

[T-Mouse]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/consequenceofsound.net/2017/06/thom-yorke-claps-back-at-roger-waters-after-calls-for-radiohead-to-boycott-israel/amp/

Thoms addressed the Isreal gig in the most Thom way imaginable. Holding nothing back.

Edited June 2, 2017 by T-Mouse

[CaledonianGonzo]

If you consider the worst possible lame-brained response as "holding nothing back", then absolutely.  Absolute state of that.

[Vanderlyle]

To be fair, the hysteria around artists performing in Israel is mind-boggling. Not because Israel is some paragon of virtue, but given the countries that are far, far worse which Waters & Co choose to ignore in their crusade, it's just bizarre that they focus on Israel.

[CaledonianGonzo]

1 minute ago, Vanderlyle said:

To be fair, the hysteria around artists performing in Israel is mind-boggling. Not because Israel is some paragon of virtue, but given the countries that are far, far worse which Waters & Co choose to ignore in their crusade, it's just bizarre that they focus on Israel.

Its nothing to do with the Israeli government's virtue - or lack thereof.  It's to do with the occupation.

Which boycotts - called for by people under similar sorts of occupation - should they be focusing on instead?

[Woffy]

If no one played in a country contesting occupied territory with another, there would be no gigs anywhere ever.

As said above, it's the manner of the occupation which counts in this case. 

Its a really, really odd move on the band's behalf IMHO, regardless of band member's personal relationships.

Surprisingly (or not due to $$$) the (moral) cultural ban doesn't seem to extend to international sport. 

[arcade fireman]

38 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Its nothing to do with the Israeli government's virtue - or lack thereof.  It's to do with the occupation.

Which boycotts - called for by people under similar sorts of occupation - should they be focusing on instead?

This could start getting off topic very quickly but there's plenty who massively disagree with the actions of Israel and don't think the BDS movement achieves anything productive. Noam Chomsky is hardly your stereotypical pro-Israel mouthpiece (indeed he's been barred from enterting Israel) but he's said as much.

Whether you agree or disagree is one thing, but the band has huge ties to the country. They were big in Israel before they were big anywhere else. Jonny's wife is Israeli and so by extension so are plenty of his family. The matter is a lot more complex than is being painted by some and while people have the right to petition Radiohead, I can see why Thom who's clearly a pretty politically aware guy has got annoyed. Clearly he's made an informed decision on this and balanced the pros and cons. Were it some airhead international pop star who didn't have a clue then they may have a point.

 

[CaledonianGonzo]

I don't think anyone was seriously expecting them to comply with the boycott - after all, most bands don't - it's the airheaded nature of his 'JK Rowling says its OK, we're the victims in this' response that annoyed me.  If he'd just stayed schtum he'd have looked like less of a wally.

11 minutes ago, Woffy said:

Surprisingly (or not due to $$$) the (moral) cultural ban doesn't seem to extend to international sport. 

There is a boycott in place, but as you say unsurprisingly it's barely visible.

[Woffy]

Just now, CaledonianGonzo said:

I don't think anyone was seriously expecting them to comply with the boycott - after all, most bands don't - it's the airheaded nature of his 'JK Rowling says its OK, we're the victims in this' response that annoyed me.  If he'd just stayed schtum he'd have looked like less of a wally.

There is a boycott in place, but as you say unsurprisingly it's barely visible.

Yeah, personally I've thought all along it's been a 'good' idea them saying absolutely nothing. 

Speaking out and reducing it the very, very personal was a fucking poor move. 

[stuartbert two hats]

3 minutes ago, Woffy said:

Yeah, personally I've thought all along it's been a 'good' idea them saying absolutely nothing. 

Speaking out and reducing it the very, very personal was a fucking poor move. 

I disagree.  It was weird that they were doing this thing that seemed pretty thoughtless to the casual observer.  Thom has simply spoken out to say that playing there isn't something they're doing lightly and that they've fully considered without getting into the specifics.  I'm fairly happy with the response.  To say nothing would have been a bit aloof.

[CaledonianGonzo]

When the Stones did it (after supporting the South African boycott, of course) they kept it zipped - but then their c**t of a keyboard player shat the bed on twitter by gloating how he was 'defying BDS'.  

This isn't as bad, but saying he's done his research and then just boiled it down to the impact on his friendship with Nigel Goodrich is.......bad.  For a supposedly more cerebral, politically switched on band.

 

[arcade fireman]

1 hour ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

This isn't as bad, but saying he's done his research and then just boiled it down to the impact on his friendship with Nigel Goodrich is.......bad.  For a supposedly more cerebral, politically switched on band.

 

He hasnt though. He's mentioned he thinks they don't work (something shared by Chomsky who is probably his biggest idol in terms of ideology) and also the very real fact that Jonny's kids are half Israeli. They have a whole side of their family that's Israeli. 

He's right that it's not a black and white decision. I completely agree with him here. If Roger Waters etc don't wish to play in Israel then people should fully accept this decision. Thom Yorke who is pretty politically switched on has weighed it up and decided he does want to play.

There has been an awful lot of criticism fired off at Radiohead as a result of this gig, it would have been a lot easier for them not to book this gig. They would have known fully how people would react. It's hardly like they'd struggle to sell out that night elsewhere. It's reasonable for Thom to respond to this. 

Edited June 2, 2017 by arcade fireman

[jparx]

How many of these unreleased songs do you reckon they'll play, if any? The way they're releasing them makes me think we might get at least one.

Edited June 2, 2017 by jparx

[TBD]

1 minute ago, jparx said:

How many of these unreleased songs do you reckon they'll play, if any? The way they're releasing them makes me think we might get at least one.

I'd say if they play any it'd be lift? A fan favourite (kinda) and it's quite festival ready. I doubt I promise will get played. 

[Madyaker]

Lift and Big Boots please!

[fowls]

33 minutes ago, TBD said:

I'd say if they play any it'd be lift? A fan favourite (kinda) and it's quite festival ready. I doubt I promise will get played. 

If they're going to play any of the three, I Promise makes the most sense. There's a video and it's on Spotify! Kinda similar pattern to how they played These Are My Twisted Words way back when.

[arcade fireman]

Who's to say we won't get videos for Big Boots and Lift...?

[fowls]

11 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

Who's to say we won't get videos for Big Boots and Lift...?

Then my prediction may change in light of unfolding developments. But so far there's only one video. One video a week in the run up would be nice.

Edited June 2, 2017 by fowls

[CaledonianGonzo]

2 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

He hasnt though. He's mentioned he thinks they don't work (something shared by Chomsky who is probably his biggest idol in terms of ideology) and also the very real fact that Jonny's kids are half Israeli. They have a whole side of their family that's Israeli.  

He doesnt outline any sort of argument, though - only an appeal to authority and some victimhood.

This latter bit you've added about personal relationships suggests an unfamiliarity with the principles and aims of the boycott.  There are 1000s of Israelis in favour of it and working on behalf of the Palestinians.  Jonny and his wife and kids aren't excluded from that.

[arcade fireman]

16 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

He doesnt outline any sort of argument, though - only an appeal to authority and some victimhood.

This latter bit you've added about personal relationships suggests an unfamiliarity with the principles and aims of the boycott.  There are 1000s of Israelis in favour of it and working on behalf of the Palestinians.  Jonny and his wife and kids aren't excluded from that.

He's said he doesn't believe they work. Do any of those slating Radiohead for playing have any evidence based argument that cultural boycotts of Israel will influence their policy towards the Palestinians? Because I haven't seen any. The default must be Radiohead going and playing to their fans unless a compelling argument can be made that them not going will make a difference. 

Jonny's situation is almost certainly different to most of the thousands of Israelis supporting BDS. They're not confronted with the same decision Jonny would have to make on this. 

[jparx]

58 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

Who's to say we won't get videos for Big Boots and Lift...?

I think we almost certainly will for at least one of them.

[CaledonianGonzo]

2 hours ago, arcade fireman said:

He's said he doesn't believe they work. Do any of those slating Radiohead for playing have any evidence based argument that cultural boycotts of Israel will influence their policy towards the Palestinians? Because I haven't seen any. The default must be Radiohead going and playing to their fans unless a compelling argument can be made that them not going will make a difference. 

South Africa

 

2 hours ago, arcade fireman said:

Jonny's situation is almost certainly different to most of the thousands of Israelis supporting BDS. They're not confronted with the same decision Jonny would have to make on this. 

Precisely.  He's in a position to make way more of a positive difference.

[arcade fireman]

2 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

South Africa

Far too simplistic an argument. Just because the cultural boycott had some impact in S Africa, it doesn't mean it would in Israel. The dynamics of the two situations are massively different. Israel wields a far bigger impact globally (and particularly with its relations with the US) than South Africa ever did.

The whole point of a boycott is to create isolation for a country and its government. Far easier to do with South Africa with fewer strong international allies (the UK stood firm with it for a while but mainly due to its gold) and became increasingly isolated in terms of trade than for Israel. The cultural boycotts happened in South Africa but it was arguably the economic and military sanctions that played a much bigger role. Without those, the cultural boycotts would have meant nothing at all - though they helped in terms of popular support for the sanctions. Israel has incredibly strong links with countries from the US to India to the Philipines. It's the stuff of fantasy that a few rock musicians not playing would really have any sort of a knock on effect on those links. 

Quote

Precisely.  He's in a position to make way more of a positive difference.

And he's also got children who are half Israeli, who have Israeli uncles, aunts, grandparents. I like how you pretend this is such an easy decision for him to make. 

[CaledonianGonzo]

1 minute ago, arcade fireman said:

Far too simplistic an argument. Just because the cultural boycott had some impact in S Africa, it doesn't mean it would in Israel. The dynamics of the two situations are massively different. Israel wields a far bigger impact globally (and particularly with its relations with the US) than South Africa ever did.

The whole point of a boycott is to create isolation for a country and its government. Far easier to do with South Africa with fewer strong international allies (the UK stood firm with it for a while but mainly due to its gold) and became increasingly isolated in terms of trade than for Israel. The cultural boycotts happened in South Africa but it was arguably the economic and military sanctions that played a much bigger role. Without those, the cultural boycotts would have meant nothing at all - though they helped in terms of popular support for the sanctions. Israel has incredibly strong links with countries from the US to India to the Philipines. It's the stuff of fantasy that a few rock musicians not playing would really have any sort of a knock on effect on those links. 

Best not do it then. Nothing will make any difference.  Better to just equivocate and boil it down to how it makes you feel when people criticise you for crossing a picket line.

3 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

And he's also got children who are half Israeli, who have Israeli uncles, aunts, grandparents. I like how you pretend this is such an easy decision for him to make. 

Unfair of you to suggest that anyone vaguely Israeli is complicit in this.

[arcade fireman]

1 minute ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Best not do it then. Nothing will make any difference.  Better to just equivocate and boil it down to how it makes you feel when people criticise you for crossing a picket line.

You can't compare it to crossing a picket line, surely? That's a ridiculous comparison. Industrial action has been shown time and time again to won hard fought freedoms for workers. People actively join unions with the implication that collective strike action would be something which would happen if required. Crossing a picket line is hypocritical for all sorts of reasons.

Completely different here. Cultural boycotts haven't been shown to succeed. Just because they happened in South Africa it doesn't mean they caused the fall of apartheid. It's pretty well established the trade and military sanctions were what did it. Do you want to lobby our governments for these? At least these might have some actual impact. But of course it's far easier for people to try and lobby rock bands to boycott, claim a win and pretend to be making any sort of a difference. 

And Radiohead haven't at any point joined any sort of BDS group or expressed solidarity for its position. Not just Palestine but they never advocated any BDS actions against China despite their long standing advocacy for Tibet. So there isn't anything inherently hypocritical in what they're doing. 

Quote

Unfair of you to suggest that anyone vaguely Israeli is complicit in this.

There's plenty of Israelis who stand against the actions of their government. That wasn't my point whatsoever.

If you have deep personal ties to a country like Jonny does, if your wife is from there and your children's extended family are from there, don't you think that makes the decision a little different than for someone like Roger Waters?

Why should any band play in the US? What Donald Trump signed yesterday alone will fuck even more lives long term than the Israelis are doing in Palestine. Let alone if we look at Iraq etc. Where does it end?