Are we In or Out?

[RichardWaller]

20 hours ago, Jacko45 said:

You think all LEAVE voters decisions were built on RACISM? Absolute classic line from bitter REMAIN voters, tar everyone that disagrees with the same brush. Their side doesn't win in a vote and out comes the abuse and accusations, also a petition because democracy isn't good enough when they don't win.

Pathetic

Here we go again, had plenty of this on here already. No, I don't think all leave voters are racist, I didn't say that, and what the fuck makes you think you can tell me what I think anyway? I did say that racism is one of the things that has led people to vote leave, which it has. That's undeniable.

Mate, it was a Leave voter who set up the petition for a second referendum, and Farage who echoed that in the event of a Remain win.

And you have the nerve to call me pathetic...

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by RichardWaller

[RichardWaller]

16 hours ago, st dan said:

It's virtually impossible for any Remain voters to begin to get behind the result to leave until an actual plan is formulated and presented, outlining the exit strategy and plans for the next steps - both short and long term.  

However at this stage, this is impossible as one does not seemingly exist.

Good point. There is no plan and the leave campaign just seem to be trying to pretend this lets give the NHS £350m a week thing hasn't happened.

I voted Remain but I'm not passionately Remain, I'm not in love with the EU, I've just tries to sift through the bullshit on both sides and gone for the side I thought was least bullshit and I know it's early days and course we're never gonna know how Remain would've moved on from here but I feel like I made the right choice. Well, less wrong one at least.

[RichardWaller]

17 hours ago, willutalk said:

I am a Leave advocate so I totally understand that it's easier for me to say this than a passionate Remain supporter given that the result did go the way I wanted it to. 

However regardless of what individual people have voted for, if they treat the result as a disaster it will just make the reality of Brexit worse. If the 48% of the country who voted in hold this view point of extreme negativity, there's not much hope for the movement working. However if the in voters cooperate with the result, respect the democratic nature of the Referendum I truly believe that both sides can come together as one to thrive during and after Brexit. Let's face it, who will want invest in a divided country? They'd probably invest in a unified country.

I can understand that the Leave side haven't behaved impeccably to warrant the upmost respect from the Remain side, but if they show respect a huge reciprocal respect will materialise from the out camp. Neither sides have been perfect have they.

Pessimism and disrespect will break this country in the aftermath of the referendum. Optimism and respect is what it needs. 

The trouble is so many people didn't even know what they were voting for. I read that after the result came out the most googled terms in the UK were "what is the EU" and "what happens if we leave the EU". Bit late now!

I completely agree about the need for optimism, but I just can't see it. I wish I could. Look at the treatment of Jeremy Corbyn, the guy who wants a kinder, more respectful politics. Personally, I've found both campaigns to be profoundly cynical and I think that's a strong reflection from the levels of deceit and nastiness that stems from Parliament and the media in this country.

That said, although you're Leave and I'm Remain, your post is one of the most respectful I've seen on this thread.

[DeanoL]

If we had a second referendum with the same facts, but different campaigns, and both sides agree it's possible the result would be different (which they clearly do) then has the referendum actually told the government anything other than who is better at campaigning?

We're leaving the EU because Boris beat Cameron at debate society?

[Teddington]

48 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

If we had a second referendum with the same facts, but different campaigns, and both sides agree it's possible the result would be different (which they clearly do) then has the referendum actually told the government anything other than who is better at campaigning?

We're leaving the EU because Boris beat Cameron at debate society?

No we (may) be leaving the EU as Corbyn didn't get the Labour vote onside........

[chestwig]

 

If anything I'd say remain clearly ran a better and more effective campaign. Had they not run such an effective campaign leave would have won by an even clearly majority.

[Teddington]

I'd say neither ran a decent campaign.  Far too much emotion and not enough facts.

Looking at todays news though:

Boris is saying there is no rush and he want's informal talks before invoking Article 50

Merkel is saying there will be no informal talks until Article 50 is invoked.

 

I believe the phrase is "Mexican standoff".   Or "we are not leaving the EU after all"...................

[Mr.Tease]

Horrific catching up on the news- we are truly fucked.

[Teddington]

3 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Horrific catching up on the news- we are truly fucked.

Nah I don't think we are.  I would have preferred to remain as on balance I think that was the better option, but there are pro's of not being in the EU and  IF we go down that route then we should sieze them.

The real issues for me is that the country is divided atm.  There are examples of shocking treatment of some EU nationals.   The little girl in tears becuase her class "didn't want her".   Irrespective of the way you voted, this is a horrible outcome and one we should seek to fix asap.

[Nobody Interesting]

2 minutes ago, Teddington said:

The real issues for me is that the country is divided atm.  There are examples of shocking treatment of some EU nationals.   The little girl in tears becuase her class "didn't want her".   Irrespective of the way you voted, this is a horrible outcome and one we should seek to fix asap.

I have a friend who was born in Norway and moved here after going to Uni. She has now worked in the UK for over 20 years, has a family here and pays all taxes like all of us.

She was in tears at the weekend as someone set on her verbally telling her she was not welcome here.

The campaign of both sides did nothing to stop this kind of vile hatred being seen as acceptable. Fuck knows where this will all lead but suddenly the UK does not feel very nice.

[RichardWaller]

17 hours ago, Teddington said:

No we (may) be leaving the EU as Corbyn didn't get the Labour vote onside........

He got two thirds, far more than Cameron managed. Still, any excuse for another dig at Corbyn.

12 hours ago, Mr.Tease said:

Horrific catching up on the news- we are truly fucked.

I don't know just how binding referendum results are, especially when there's less than 5% in it. I wonder if - and there are plenty of ifs in the hypothetical scenario in about to put forward - if Corbyn or any other candidate for that matter, stood for election and pledged not to go through with Brexit and won, whether their election would be accepted as valid enough to override the referendum? Who knows, it might take that long, doesn't seem to be any plan.

Course, if there's going to be a plan at all there'll be the negotiations that go with it which could lead to a stalemate. If the EU were to dig its heels in and refuse to offer whatever concessions the Leave camp ask for, if the Leave camp can't leave on their terms (if they even figure out what those terms are!), it's possible it might not happen. 

Course, if Leave doesn't happen we'll be in such a weird place... If someone poured as much scorn on me and made as many false promises as the Leave campaign has about the EU, I'd hardly feel like welcoming them back with open arms... If after this we don't end up leaving, we're gonna have some grovelling to do...

[Ommadawn]

13 hours ago, Mr.Tease said:

Horrific catching up on the news- we are truly fucked.

No we're not.

[fightoffyour]

On 24 June 2016 at 9:29 AM, OG said:

The problem is most of the public are fucking stupid 

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis, you can't trust people.

[MoilyX]

13 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

No we're not.

• Markets tanking 
• Thousands of jobs lost already (in Finance sector alone, plus many thousands more to come elsewhere)
• Hundreds of EU-funded projects benefitting communities to be closed
• Both main political parties in Civil War turmoil, each being played by self-serving arseholes who jeopardised the future of this country for generations to come just for their own personal gain
• The move to the Far Right of large swathes of the country
• Significant rise in racist attacks in various forms across the country
• Several years (/decades?) of difficult and laborious negotiations to just get us back to the point where we were last week
• and with the calibre of slimy toads available to do that (Johnson, Gove, Hunt; Corbyn and the backstabbers waiting for him to go on the Labour side)

= Yes we are

The damage already done and which will continue until we get some stability will take a long time to reverse. We're in for a horrendous time.

[Ommadawn]

1 minute ago, MoilyX said:

• Markets tanking 
• Thousands of jobs lost already (in Finance sector alone, plus many thousands more to come elsewhere)
• Hundreds of EU-funded projects benefitting communities to be closed
• Both main political parties in Civil War turmoil, each being played by self-serving arseholes who jeopardised the future of this country for generations to come just for their own personal gain
• The move to the Far Right of large swathes of the country
• Significant rise in racist attacks in various forms across the country
• Several years (/decades?) of difficult and laborious negotiations to just get us back to the point where we were last week
• and with the calibre of slimy toads available to do that (Johnson, Gove, Hunt; Corbyn and the backstabbers waiting for him to go on the Labour side)

= Yes we are

The damage already done and which will continue until we get some stability will take a long time to reverse. We're in for a horrendous time.

I can see you're a 'Glass Half Empty' person. At least half your points are completely untrue and the rest somewhat exaggerated.

If it's any comfort, I don't think we'll be leaving the EU. There will be something 'cobbled together' to keep us in (probably involving a General Election) and the democratic vote we saw last Thursday will be overturned. Then you might be able to truly say that Britain is fucked.

[krisskross]

2 minutes ago, MoilyX said:

• Markets tanking 
• Thousands of jobs lost already (in Finance sector alone, plus many thousands more to come elsewhere)
• Hundreds of EU-funded projects benefitting communities to be closed
• Both main political parties in Civil War turmoil, each being played by self-serving arseholes who jeopardised the future of this country for generations to come just for their own personal gain
• The move to the Far Right of large swathes of the country
• Significant rise in racist attacks in various forms across the country
• Several years (/decades?) of difficult and laborious negotiations to just get us back to the point where we were last week
• and with the calibre of slimy toads available to do that (Johnson, Gove, Hunt; Corbyn and the backstabbers waiting for him to go on the Labour side)

= Yes we are

The damage already done and which will continue until we get some stability will take a long time to reverse. We're in for a horrendous time.

Tihis ^^

It'll take a few weeks or months to start to see the real effect this has had on the economy. Petrol prices will be going up by >10% (basically anything traded internationally in US dollars will go up), food imports, etc. Good luck trying to get a loan for anything.. The banks cant afford to do shit given their shares have just tanked.

[MoilyX]

2 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

I can see you're a 'Glass Half Empty' person. At least half your points are completely untrue and the rest somewhat exaggerated.

If it's any comfort, I don't think we'll be leaving the EU. There will be something 'cobbled together' to keep us in (probably involving a General Election) and the democratic vote we saw last Thursday will be overturned. Then you might be able to truly say that Britain is fucked.

Nothing to do with viewpoints of glasses half full/empty they are cold, hard facts. Turn the news on or read up on the internet if you don't believe me.

 

[WoodenDuck]

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/stop-asking-for-a-second-referendum?utm_source=vicefbuk

[Keithy]

13 hours ago, Mr.Tease said:

Horrific catching up on the news- we are truly fucked.

I don't think we are but we're not out of the woods. Had article 50 been invoked on friday then we would be fucked.

However, i don't think the tory brexiters actually want to leave the EU. Their messages post friday have all been around sovereignty and ensuring only the UK parliament has control around laws. At worst we join the EEA so still have access to the single market and freedom of movement but Parliament is 'freed' from the EU courts of justice and can negotiate it's own trade deals.

Leave knew their only hope of winning was to tap into the anti-immigration well but all those promises will be quietly dropped now. Gove and Boris are still tories and have the same fundamental beliefs in globalisation and the power of the free markets. Those beliefs are incompatible with leaving the single market and stopping immigration. 

[MoilyX]

9 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

I can see you're a 'Glass Half Empty' person. At least half your points are completely untrue and the rest somewhat exaggerated.

If it's any comfort, I don't think we'll be leaving the EU. There will be something 'cobbled together' to keep us in (probably involving a General Election) and the democratic vote we saw last Thursday will be overturned. Then you might be able to truly say that Britain is fucked.

Genuine question for you -

Who do you think is the most capable of negotiating our exit/bluff-exit from the EU?

 

Edited June 28, 2016 by MoilyX

[Nobody Interesting]

The worst that could/will happen is not what will happen in the UK it is what might happen in Europe.

Already far right parties all over are calling for referendum to leave and all over their supporters seem to find it more acceptable to say what they think in public.

People like Farage have a lot to answer for and unless governments all over are careful then it could get nasty.

[reflekting]

Did anyone else struggle to rouse themselves on the Friday after the vote went down. It felt like someone had died all across the site. Sombre glastonbury is certainly not the one I was expecting to face going into the weekend. 

[arcade fireman]

1 hour ago, RichardWaller said:

He got two thirds, far more than Cameron managed. Still, any excuse for another dig at Corbyn.

There are plenty of very good excuses for a dig at Corbyn. My own politics are far closer to Corbyn's than to Cameron but Cameron campaigned passionately and tirelessly. Corbyn had minimal participation in the leave campaign. There's plenty of leaked documents already which show Corbyn's office repeatedly removed references from official literature to water down his support for remaining in the EU. This fits in with his own quite Eurosceptic views so at least he was being true to himself, but he has to bear a massive amount of responsibility.

Comparing the amount of Labour voters to Tory voters is meaningless. There is a massive proportion of Tory voters who are naturally Eurosceptic. This doesn't exist anywhere near as much with Labour voters - many are much more pro Europe than against Europe.

A lot of Labour's Eurosceptic voters switched to UKIP at the last election. The question we should be asking is why did Labour manage to still lose a third of those who voted Labour? And what was the turnout of Labour voters in this referendum, given the poor turnout in general of younger voters? It is unquestionable Corbyn could and should have done more to prevent this mess, and he really needs to go. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by arcade fireman

[ejj]

I really struggled on Friday. The result, Jo cox's tribute (which was fantastic)  and watching the Syrian orchestra led me into a deep depression about the state of the world that lasted most of the day. Thank god for billy bragg and the awesome atmosphere at left field that evening. It was so good to be with other people feeling shit, and pulled me out of my miserable mind set. Overall I had a great weekend. 

[MoilyX]

41 minutes ago, krisskross said:

Tihis ^^

It'll take a few weeks or months to start to see the real effect this has had on the economy. Petrol prices will be going up by >10% (basically anything traded internationally in US dollars will go up), food imports, etc. Good luck trying to get a loan for anything.. The banks cant afford to do shit given their shares have just tanked.

I forgot to include the Construction industry as well, from Housebuilders to large (and very lucrative for the UK economy) projects being mothball or canned.