Are we In or Out?

[Teddington]

48 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

If we had a second referendum with the same facts, but different campaigns, and both sides agree it's possible the result would be different (which they clearly do) then has the referendum actually told the government anything other than who is better at campaigning?

We're leaving the EU because Boris beat Cameron at debate society?

No we (may) be leaving the EU as Corbyn didn't get the Labour vote onside........

[chestwig]

 

If anything I'd say remain clearly ran a better and more effective campaign. Had they not run such an effective campaign leave would have won by an even clearly majority.

[Teddington]

I'd say neither ran a decent campaign.  Far too much emotion and not enough facts.

Looking at todays news though:

Boris is saying there is no rush and he want's informal talks before invoking Article 50

Merkel is saying there will be no informal talks until Article 50 is invoked.

 

I believe the phrase is "Mexican standoff".   Or "we are not leaving the EU after all"...................

[Mr.Tease]

Horrific catching up on the news- we are truly fucked.

[Teddington]

3 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Horrific catching up on the news- we are truly fucked.

Nah I don't think we are.  I would have preferred to remain as on balance I think that was the better option, but there are pro's of not being in the EU and  IF we go down that route then we should sieze them.

The real issues for me is that the country is divided atm.  There are examples of shocking treatment of some EU nationals.   The little girl in tears becuase her class "didn't want her".   Irrespective of the way you voted, this is a horrible outcome and one we should seek to fix asap.

[RichardWaller]

17 hours ago, Teddington said:

No we (may) be leaving the EU as Corbyn didn't get the Labour vote onside........

He got two thirds, far more than Cameron managed. Still, any excuse for another dig at Corbyn.

12 hours ago, Mr.Tease said:

Horrific catching up on the news- we are truly fucked.

I don't know just how binding referendum results are, especially when there's less than 5% in it. I wonder if - and there are plenty of ifs in the hypothetical scenario in about to put forward - if Corbyn or any other candidate for that matter, stood for election and pledged not to go through with Brexit and won, whether their election would be accepted as valid enough to override the referendum? Who knows, it might take that long, doesn't seem to be any plan.

Course, if there's going to be a plan at all there'll be the negotiations that go with it which could lead to a stalemate. If the EU were to dig its heels in and refuse to offer whatever concessions the Leave camp ask for, if the Leave camp can't leave on their terms (if they even figure out what those terms are!), it's possible it might not happen. 

Course, if Leave doesn't happen we'll be in such a weird place... If someone poured as much scorn on me and made as many false promises as the Leave campaign has about the EU, I'd hardly feel like welcoming them back with open arms... If after this we don't end up leaving, we're gonna have some grovelling to do...

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Mr.Tease said:

Horrific catching up on the news- we are truly fucked.

No we're not.

[fightoffyour]

On 24 June 2016 at 9:29 AM, OG said:

The problem is most of the public are fucking stupid 

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis, you can't trust people.

[MoilyX]

13 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

No we're not.

• Markets tanking 
• Thousands of jobs lost already (in Finance sector alone, plus many thousands more to come elsewhere)
• Hundreds of EU-funded projects benefitting communities to be closed
• Both main political parties in Civil War turmoil, each being played by self-serving arseholes who jeopardised the future of this country for generations to come just for their own personal gain
• The move to the Far Right of large swathes of the country
• Significant rise in racist attacks in various forms across the country
• Several years (/decades?) of difficult and laborious negotiations to just get us back to the point where we were last week
• and with the calibre of slimy toads available to do that (Johnson, Gove, Hunt; Corbyn and the backstabbers waiting for him to go on the Labour side)

= Yes we are

The damage already done and which will continue until we get some stability will take a long time to reverse. We're in for a horrendous time.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, MoilyX said:

• Markets tanking 
• Thousands of jobs lost already (in Finance sector alone, plus many thousands more to come elsewhere)
• Hundreds of EU-funded projects benefitting communities to be closed
• Both main political parties in Civil War turmoil, each being played by self-serving arseholes who jeopardised the future of this country for generations to come just for their own personal gain
• The move to the Far Right of large swathes of the country
• Significant rise in racist attacks in various forms across the country
• Several years (/decades?) of difficult and laborious negotiations to just get us back to the point where we were last week
• and with the calibre of slimy toads available to do that (Johnson, Gove, Hunt; Corbyn and the backstabbers waiting for him to go on the Labour side)

= Yes we are

The damage already done and which will continue until we get some stability will take a long time to reverse. We're in for a horrendous time.

I can see you're a 'Glass Half Empty' person. At least half your points are completely untrue and the rest somewhat exaggerated.

If it's any comfort, I don't think we'll be leaving the EU. There will be something 'cobbled together' to keep us in (probably involving a General Election) and the democratic vote we saw last Thursday will be overturned. Then you might be able to truly say that Britain is fucked.

[krisskross]

2 minutes ago, MoilyX said:

• Markets tanking 
• Thousands of jobs lost already (in Finance sector alone, plus many thousands more to come elsewhere)
• Hundreds of EU-funded projects benefitting communities to be closed
• Both main political parties in Civil War turmoil, each being played by self-serving arseholes who jeopardised the future of this country for generations to come just for their own personal gain
• The move to the Far Right of large swathes of the country
• Significant rise in racist attacks in various forms across the country
• Several years (/decades?) of difficult and laborious negotiations to just get us back to the point where we were last week
• and with the calibre of slimy toads available to do that (Johnson, Gove, Hunt; Corbyn and the backstabbers waiting for him to go on the Labour side)

= Yes we are

The damage already done and which will continue until we get some stability will take a long time to reverse. We're in for a horrendous time.

Tihis ^^

It'll take a few weeks or months to start to see the real effect this has had on the economy. Petrol prices will be going up by >10% (basically anything traded internationally in US dollars will go up), food imports, etc. Good luck trying to get a loan for anything.. The banks cant afford to do shit given their shares have just tanked.

[MoilyX]

2 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

I can see you're a 'Glass Half Empty' person. At least half your points are completely untrue and the rest somewhat exaggerated.

If it's any comfort, I don't think we'll be leaving the EU. There will be something 'cobbled together' to keep us in (probably involving a General Election) and the democratic vote we saw last Thursday will be overturned. Then you might be able to truly say that Britain is fucked.

Nothing to do with viewpoints of glasses half full/empty they are cold, hard facts. Turn the news on or read up on the internet if you don't believe me.

 

[WoodenDuck]

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/stop-asking-for-a-second-referendum?utm_source=vicefbuk

[Keithy]

13 hours ago, Mr.Tease said:

Horrific catching up on the news- we are truly fucked.

I don't think we are but we're not out of the woods. Had article 50 been invoked on friday then we would be fucked.

However, i don't think the tory brexiters actually want to leave the EU. Their messages post friday have all been around sovereignty and ensuring only the UK parliament has control around laws. At worst we join the EEA so still have access to the single market and freedom of movement but Parliament is 'freed' from the EU courts of justice and can negotiate it's own trade deals.

Leave knew their only hope of winning was to tap into the anti-immigration well but all those promises will be quietly dropped now. Gove and Boris are still tories and have the same fundamental beliefs in globalisation and the power of the free markets. Those beliefs are incompatible with leaving the single market and stopping immigration. 

[MoilyX]

9 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

I can see you're a 'Glass Half Empty' person. At least half your points are completely untrue and the rest somewhat exaggerated.

If it's any comfort, I don't think we'll be leaving the EU. There will be something 'cobbled together' to keep us in (probably involving a General Election) and the democratic vote we saw last Thursday will be overturned. Then you might be able to truly say that Britain is fucked.

Genuine question for you -

Who do you think is the most capable of negotiating our exit/bluff-exit from the EU?

 

Edited June 28, 2016 by MoilyX

[reflekting]

Did anyone else struggle to rouse themselves on the Friday after the vote went down. It felt like someone had died all across the site. Sombre glastonbury is certainly not the one I was expecting to face going into the weekend. 

[arcade fireman]

1 hour ago, RichardWaller said:

He got two thirds, far more than Cameron managed. Still, any excuse for another dig at Corbyn.

There are plenty of very good excuses for a dig at Corbyn. My own politics are far closer to Corbyn's than to Cameron but Cameron campaigned passionately and tirelessly. Corbyn had minimal participation in the leave campaign. There's plenty of leaked documents already which show Corbyn's office repeatedly removed references from official literature to water down his support for remaining in the EU. This fits in with his own quite Eurosceptic views so at least he was being true to himself, but he has to bear a massive amount of responsibility.

Comparing the amount of Labour voters to Tory voters is meaningless. There is a massive proportion of Tory voters who are naturally Eurosceptic. This doesn't exist anywhere near as much with Labour voters - many are much more pro Europe than against Europe.

A lot of Labour's Eurosceptic voters switched to UKIP at the last election. The question we should be asking is why did Labour manage to still lose a third of those who voted Labour? And what was the turnout of Labour voters in this referendum, given the poor turnout in general of younger voters? It is unquestionable Corbyn could and should have done more to prevent this mess, and he really needs to go. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by arcade fireman

[ejj]

I really struggled on Friday. The result, Jo cox's tribute (which was fantastic)  and watching the Syrian orchestra led me into a deep depression about the state of the world that lasted most of the day. Thank god for billy bragg and the awesome atmosphere at left field that evening. It was so good to be with other people feeling shit, and pulled me out of my miserable mind set. Overall I had a great weekend. 

[MoilyX]

41 minutes ago, krisskross said:

Tihis ^^

It'll take a few weeks or months to start to see the real effect this has had on the economy. Petrol prices will be going up by >10% (basically anything traded internationally in US dollars will go up), food imports, etc. Good luck trying to get a loan for anything.. The banks cant afford to do shit given their shares have just tanked.

I forgot to include the Construction industry as well, from Housebuilders to large (and very lucrative for the UK economy) projects being mothball or canned.

[kh24]

Farage has already started his 'betrayal' narrative, particularly re. immigration. Regardless of how explicit/implicit leave campaigners were, I've read and seen plenty of coverage to suggest many Leave voters are, at best, expecting to see controlled immigration or a significant reduction in immigration. This won't happen though.

A chunk of voters also seem to think we will now be deporting or repatriating migrants too. (Ok, it might just be a few but this sentiments is not to be dismissed, especially in deprived communities.) Some voters aren't even differentiating between EU and non-EU migrants, the just believe that 'Brussels' is the reason we 'don't control our borders'. Anyone who campaigned on the Leave side needs to take some responsibility for the hideous conflation of immigration and EU membership no matter how 'direct' their claims.

So, when Boris/Gove have to explain that there will continue to be free movement/no significant reduction in immigration there will be a mass revolt that Farage et al will seize on. It's a barefaced lie, as Boris suggested yesterday, to just shrug and claim that they don't believe that for many Leave voters 'sovereignty' not immigration was a key issue. They knew this to be untrue, but did nothing to stop the untruths/fury being stoked up during the campaign as they knew this would be a huge vote-winner for Leave. Based on a false promise that they knew they couldn't keep.    

If there is a general election soon, and this situation is mismanaged (and I'm not holding out much hope it will be handled with care having caught up on the news yesterday) UKIP will make massive gains from Labour and some Tory seats (where they are already coming in a close second or third) just by claiming that the Tories are breaking their 'promise' to the people. Meanwhile, the far right are more emboldened to stoke racist views and attacks. And Labour? A terrible mix of infighting, poor leadership, plotting, a terribly timed coup and the hideous realisation that many of 'their own' voters placed an x in that box based on anti-immigrant feeling (where they still in denial about this after the last GE?). No matter what side of Labour you agree with, no-one wins from this. Still, Chilcott next week eh?

I was in such a weird mood on Friday. It felt like proper end-of-days stuff. Thank god for the Leftfield.  A bit better being able to catch up with the news properly yesterday but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't genuinely frightened at what will happen next. 

[phil the shrew]

3 minutes ago, ejj said:

I really struggled on Friday. The result, Jo cox's tribute (which was fantastic)  and watching the Syrian orchestra led me into a deep depression about the state of the world that lasted most of the day. Thank god for billy bragg and the awesome atmosphere at left field that evening. It was so good to be with other people feeling shit, and pulled me out of my miserable mind set. Overall I had a great weekend. 

Started the day in a complete fuzz but got an early morning preview of Underworlds set on West Holts and said hello to Karl Hyde which cheered me up.

Spent most of the day at Leftfield and agree Billy Braggs set was just what was needed. Great combination of anger, frustration and concern, but also a real feeling of the need to stand up for values that are important to us

As a slight aside did anyone see the mime artist in theatre fields dressed in a blue suit holding a bulldog soft toy and crying? That freaked me out but would love to get a photo of it to prove its wasn't just my imagination! 

[Mr.Tease]

51 minutes ago, MoilyX said:

• Markets tanking 
• Thousands of jobs lost already (in Finance sector alone, plus many thousands more to come elsewhere)
• Hundreds of EU-funded projects benefitting communities to be closed
• Both main political parties in Civil War turmoil, each being played by self-serving arseholes who jeopardised the future of this country for generations to come just for their own personal gain
• The move to the Far Right of large swathes of the country
• Significant rise in racist attacks in various forms across the country
• Several years (/decades?) of difficult and laborious negotiations to just get us back to the point where we were last week
• and with the calibre of slimy toads available to do that (Johnson, Gove, Hunt; Corbyn and the backstabbers waiting for him to go on the Labour side)

= Yes we are

The damage already done and which will continue until we get some stability will take a long time to reverse. We're in for a horrendous time.

Yep, though you forgot to mention the context of us having a record, near unsustainable level of debt that we're still struggling to reduce. But now instead of focusing on that, most resources will be tied up, as you said, negotiating to get us back to the point where we were last week AND they've triggered another recession.

I very much agree with Billy Bragg, who said you can tell the exit-ers were lying and didn't think they'd win because now the results been announced they all look like they're shitting themselves- look at any interview!

The problem with insular politics is that you can never get insular enough to placate people. Now they've got their EU exit, they'll move onto a position of wanting to kick out immigrants. If they got that they'd move onto other divisions, be it skin colour, out-of-towners, north south, etc etc

[Mr.Tease]

19 minutes ago, reflekting said:

Did anyone else struggle to rouse themselves on the Friday after the vote went down. It felt like someone had died all across the site. Sombre glastonbury is certainly not the one I was expecting to face going into the weekend. 

It came and went over the duration- I dwelled on it during Sigur Ros, forgot about it during Earth Wind and Fire. What was nice was that there were so many people who felt the same way, it was nice to share the frustrations and fears and sadness and connect with people on that- better than being stuck with people celebrating the result and being smug!

[RichardWaller]

4 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

There are plenty of very good excuses for a dig at Corbyn. My own politics are far closer to Corbyn's than to Cameron but Cameron campaigned passionately and tirelessly. Corbyn had minimal participation in the leave campaign. There's plenty of leaked documents already which show Corbyn's office repeatedly removed references from official literature to water down his support for remaining in the EU. This fits in with his own quite Eurosceptic views so at least he was being true to himself, but he has to bear a massive amount of responsibility.

Comparing the amount of Labour voters to Tory voters is meaningless. There is a massive proportion of Tory voters who are naturally Eurosceptic. This doesn't exist anywhere near as much with Labour voters - many are much more pro Europe than against Europe.

A lot of Labour's Eurosceptic voters switched to UKIP at the last election. The question we should be asking is why did Labour manage to still lose a third of those who voted Labour? And what was the turnout of Labour voters in this referendum, given the poor turnout in general of younger voters? It is unquestionable Corbyn could and should have done more to prevent this mess, and he really needs to go. 

Corbyn was Remain, he attended loads of rallies against a media blackout and you know I think if he'd spent the last three weeks shouting his heart out in stadiums up and down the country that wouldn't have been enough for some people. And yeah, you're right, he is mildly Eurosceptic too, I think in the Last Leg interview he said he was 7/10 in favour of Remain? So I'm not sure why people expect him to be full throttle. There were plenty of people more passionate and convincing, maybe his 7/10 would've undermined the Remain campaign.

You say comparing Labour and Tory voters is meaningless but then talk about the Eurosceptic voters Labour lost to UKIP at the last election - what has that got to do with Corbyn's leadership? Overall, the turnout was better than the last general election. I'd be interested to know more about the turnout of this or that demographic but we can never be conclusive about these things, hope people haven't been sticking their age and membership on their ballots... 

[Guest]

There is a massive split in the country but democracy has spoken. I voted to remain but I am not going to moan. The people have spoken and it is time pull together so that we can make the best of the situation for all our futures.

We have a blank sheet now and we will start again. How we progress is now down to us.