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The Dirty Independence Question

Kyelo

By Kyelo,
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russycarps
russycarps

If they were voting for a Venezuelan style left wing revolution (for example) then none of the figures would matter a jot, and I'd say go for it and be green with envy. But all they are voting for

russycarps
russycarps

Finally crushed by the weight of her own  corruption. Exactly as I predicted several pages back (probably). I am here to offer my heartfelt condolences to LJS. It is never easy to lose a lover.

kaosmark2
kaosmark2

No, it's completely irrelevant. Scotland is a region of the UK, to select it as if Scotland is any more or less special than any other region suggests that there is something distinct. There isn't. Th

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eFestivals Mentor

eFestivals

Posted
Posted (edited)

Prediction time?

I'll go - No 56% Yes 44%. 83% turnout.

No 58℅

Yes 42℅

Turnout 86%

-------------

I'll take this opportunity to say.....

You know I think Scotland should vote no, but more than a victory for no I'd prefer a vote of unity for Scotland and a big win for one side.

However you vote and whoever wins, I hope it brings you what you want it to. :)

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Comfy Bean Collaborator

Comfy Bean

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I'm sorry but this is just glib nonsense.

There is a George Santayana quote perfect for the occasion: Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

The data presented today shows the current available financial data for Scotland as well as a number of social attitudes surveys etc. To glibly dismiss it as history is unworthy. You may as well have stuck to the scaremongering line, at least it is easier to believe from you.

A yes vote is not likely to bring you the panacea you are hoping for. You are not being given the choice between a red and blue pill with some magic powers to right humanities wrongs. You will start off from a worse position that today and whether you are successful in the short, never mind the long term will be as much luck as anything else.

I understand that you want to seceded from the union more than anything, but why not just be honest. Recognise the figures and consequences for what they are and challenge those pretending to you that they don't exist or are only there to scare you away from your much desired secession. Wouldn't you prefer to actually have some of these things prepared for rather than making such a folly as a leap into the unknown?

I couldn`t agree more. Tomorrow Scotland will have it`s future in it`s own hands. Do we change things by holding onto it or do we hand it back on Friday. Surely that would be repeating the past ?

I have posted already( more than once ) that IF....Salmond pulls this off I will be filled with excitement and just a wee bit fear. As for preparation, we already have a stack of stuff devolved. Health , education etc. We even have a Parliament building ! Compared to some countries around the world who have chosen to manage their own affairs we are certainly " prepared " mate. We might not be able to " right humanities wrongs " well not on Friday *

but we are planning on a fairer society and whatever party wins our elections will govern Scotland from Edinburgh. They will be more accountable in my opinion as if they don`t govern us as they claim then we will have the power to make change. The SNP are widely regarded ( this is open to opinion of course ) as being more effective and efficient than the Westminster Govts - I mean in the time taken to get things done. We already have free prescriptions for the ill, free education, free care for the elderly, free childcare is coming, we are scrapping the bedroom tax and removing the worthless trident. None of this would be happening under the Tories who you suggest we should return to on Friday. Of course the data Neil posted is relevant but we have been blethering about it on here for months now. We will have plenty of facts and figures to argue the toss over for many years to come.

Whats your view on the Super Powers being announced AFTER the voting had started ?

Do you believe I will ever see the pledge delivered ?

* Joke

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Stash Newbie

Stash

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Posted

What's your view on the Super Powers being announced AFTER the voting had started ?

Do you believe I will ever see the pledge delivered ?

My personal view is that there should be no new powers on the agenda and those suggested might not be acceptable to all.

I'd rather see a full review across the whole UK that finds an acceptable way for the whole of the country, not one small component. Without the scattered sole interest annoyances such as this whole campaign which seems to have damaged national relationships to no ones interest.

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Comfy Bean Collaborator

Comfy Bean

Posted
Posted

No 58℅

Yes 42℅

Turnout 86%

-------------

I'll take this opportunity to say.....

You know I think Scotland should vote no, but more than a victory for no I'd prefer a vote of unity for Scotland and a big win for one side.

However you vote and whoever wins, I hope it brings you what you want it to. :)

Good post Sir.

I said in my very first post that I was going 60/40 NO. I have always allowed myself a 3% margin of error. I ain`t cursing it now as I have deliberately never changed it in any of my posts so I`ll take 57 / 43 and 88%.

The 88% is something to be really chuffed about. A real credit to both sides.

Is this the right time for future predictions :ninja:

Next time ( hopefully won`t be needed of course ) I`m going with 65 / 35 YES 92%

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Comfy Bean Collaborator

Comfy Bean

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Yep, cos I'm no fan of bullshit.

It's all very well having grand hopes for the future, but the bills still have to be paid. Hopes cannot hold back reality, as you'll get to find out if the vote goes your way.

You know....I know...that the bills still have to be paid. I know...you know what the current state of our Debt is. We are already a " financial basket case ". I have said we should take our share of the debt. Westminster have got us into a total mess and change could give Scotland and England a shake. I honestly think that we have already given the country a shake and hope it works out well for us all. Thursday we have the power to change everything.....that is the key for me.

Just for fun.... way back I used to needle you that you were a secret YES man. I gave up asking but to be honest...

Anyway. If you were asked on Friday what way YOU would have voted IF Salmond had not been in charge....well we`ll never know I suppose :)

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LJS Rising Star

LJS

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Posted

Problem is, it's the poorest who will suffer most. Not those who can afford to make the gamble.

It's desperately sad really.

where is the UK in the league table of inequality?

But isnt it true that in 4 of the last 5 years Scotland has generated more in tax then it got in public spending?

well not technically, because the UK is running a deficit, all of it gets more spending than it raises in tax. What is correct (according to the cybernat bbc) is that we have had a lower deficit than the UK for 4 out of the past 5 years

here's the real deal for Thom - with the Scotland numbers being from GERS/SNAP.

It's far less rosy than the bullshit from yes says.

Ah yes Neil's famous list of unlinked figures

I could do that

Well, if you or anyone else is able to point at numbers which back that up, and which go back further to give a full historical picture, I'm all ears.

The numbers I've given you have been read by tens of thousands of yes-ers - and NOT ONCE disputed with alternative numbers.

(lots of personal attacks on the person who provided those numbers, mind ;)).

BBC

I've kept digging around for those SNAP numbers, without any luck so far. I mgith still locate them somewhere.

But what I have fo9und is two very interesting letters about Scotland and the EU.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Inquiries/20140310_Convener_to_Vivianne_Reding_European_Commission.pdf

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Inquiries/Letter_from_Viviane_Reding_Vice_President_of_the_European_Commission_dated_20_March_2014__pdf.pdf

The first is a letter from the Scottish Govt to the EU to ask the European Commission's attitude to Scotland's membership via Article 48 rather than the more-normal Article 49.

The second is an official reply from the European Commission.

(I was aware of the 2nd letter, i'd never been sure of its context till now).

So Scotland, you're fucked where immediate EU membership is concerned. But you just keep on pretending it's a possibility, eh?

(I do, however, expect there to be some sort of kudge offered to Scotland - tho for a price, and definitely not for more opt-outs than any EU member has ever had).

Remind me Neil, who makes the decisions in the EU?

Scotland, the nation?

Yup

One of the problems with stats is where you get them from, and when. National numbers often get revised long after the event, while lots of calcs tend to get mostly made from the numbers that are initally published for any period. And just to confuse things further, people sometimes work off one set of revised numbers and one set of un-revised numbers - as the numbers don't tend to get revised all at the same time.

Amusingly, the UK has just started including estimates for drug dealing and prostitution within GDP figures - which has caused a number of recent years to be revised yet again.

but most of us supply links

I don't think it's an impossibility, tho from the Edinburgh agreement I don't think it's too likely. That says that the integrity of Scotland's territory will remain.

More likely is them immediately pushing Salmond for devolution - which I guarantee he'll reject. He doesn't spend 40 years trying to make himself king of Scotland only to give it straight away.

Having lived in Shetland for 10 years, I will repeat again that there is no significant movement to either remain in the Uk or go independent. I've said this before but it keeps popping up without a shred of evidence. What Shetland does demonatrate is how to build an oil fund that benefits the whole community.

/me idly wonders if LJS will be showing that Scottish Govt spreadsheet to the people in Scotland he's been trying to convince to vote yes?

After all, if he didn't that would make him everything the same as the people who "hid" the McCrone Report from Scotland, and he's said that was wrong of them to do that.

As LJS is good moral man who wouldn't want to mislead people via mis-information, I know we can trust him to show his mates that spreadsheet.

:P

Well Neil, I had a good long look at it & couldn't find anything remotely resembling your table. I'm not too interested in the 1980's so i'll stick with the past 5 years if that's ok.

The real bonus in this debate is that I have finally worked out how to do that multiquote thing

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LJS Rising Star

LJS

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Posted

This ^^^ so much this ^^^. It really has been an education :biggrin:

How you bearing up mate ? Good luck and here`s hoping your prediction comes true.

I am sitting here in tears, having just read this, written by my son

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/09/17/dear-scotland/

I hope the cynics on here who will no doubt fault it for its lack of an economic vision and an answer on the currency question will do me a favour and pass on by without comment.

Other than that comfy,I'm great. Nervous excited & exhilarated.

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