The Dirty Independence Question

[Stash]

You hear no one saying "hey Scotland, do what you want. Go on. Be stupid if you want. BTW if you get an iScotland you will be fucked and we will be AOK down south"

I take it you don't visit the Telegraph or Mail comments sections!

[eFestivals]

I take it you don't visit the Telegraph or Mail comments sections!

Any comments section anywhere. It's not just the Telegraph and the Mail - tho they're by-far the worst for the nutty self-obsessed right wingers.

[5co77ie]

Is it true that if there's a yes vote - Shetland, Orkney, Outer Hebrides, and Western Isles are considering appealing to become British Overseas Territories.

Edited September 17, 2014 by 5co77ie

[ThomThomDrum]

I take it you don't visit the Telegraph or Mail comments sections!

Eh no. That would not be my reading of choice.

I have only been exposed to the campaigns I suppose and have personally not seen folk from outside Scotland asking for a "Yes vote and would you please fuck of, we never wanted you anyway"

[eFestivals]

Is it true that if there's a yes vote - Shetland, Orkney, Outer Hebrides, and Western Isles are considering appealing to become British Overseas Territories.

I don't think it's an impossibility, tho from the Edinburgh agreement I don't think it's too likely. That says that the integrity of Scotland's territory will remain.

More likely is them immediately pushing Salmond for devolution - which I guarantee he'll reject. He doesn't spend 40 years trying to make himself king of Scotland only to give it straight away.

[eFestivals]

Eh no. That would not be my reading of choice.

they're great comedy for the reader's comments - particularly under UKIP stories.

It was me laughing at the nutters under newspaper articles which ended up hooking me into the indyref thing.

[ThomThomDrum]

Better together?

[eFestivals]

Here you go.

The data which says that Scotland has has a greater deficit than the UK for 19 of the last 25 years can be found on the Scottish Govt's own website, here:-

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/GERS/RelatedAreas/LRfiscalbalances2013

(then there's a link on that page to an excel file which has the actual data. The last two tabs on the spreadsheet and the last column of each is what you want to compare).

Yes, the years 1980 to 1989 were fantastic for Scotland because of the oil money in those peak years. It's an irrelevance now.

The oil flows and the oil revenues are only downwards now.

Edited September 17, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

As the Scottish Govt itself says that in 19 of the last 25 years Scotland has run a bigger deficit than the UK as a whole, are yes-ers going to call the Scottish govt liars who've been put up to it by Cameron?

[eFestivals]

PS: and thank you to the data-hounds for the numbers and links I've borrowed from them for many of the posts I've made today.

[eFestivals]

Better together?

even their mothers couldn't love them.

[eFestivals]

PS ... has anyone ever wondered why Alex's SNAP Project had decided to only look back as far as 1980, when the oil started to flow big?

[eFestivals]

/me idly wonders if LJS will be showing that Scottish Govt spreadsheet to the people in Scotland he's been trying to convince to vote yes?

After all, if he didn't that would make him everything the same as the people who "hid" the McCrone Report from Scotland, and he's said that was wrong of them to do that.

As LJS is good moral man who wouldn't want to mislead people via mis-information, I know we can trust him to show his mates that spreadsheet.

[Comfy Bean]

Think we had an article from this guy before. An interesting read. Just his opinion of course.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/media-shafted-people-scotland-journalists

Edited September 17, 2014 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

2 Billy`s entered the debate today. Clinton.....well you can guess and the views of Billy Bragg :

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/scottish-nationalism-british-westminster-class

[Comfy Bean]

PS ... has anyone ever wondered why Alex's SNAP Project had decided to only look back as far as 1980, when the oil started to flow big?

Erm .....No !

Just catching up on all your info today sir. You have been a busy bee ! One things stands out, it`s all history. This got me thinking. The Empire, Union, UK - they are all history. Scotland is looking to the future. You are like that Gargamel dude chasing after the Smurfs ! A Positive vision for Scotlands future is what Salmond has been on about. Fairer and better are his aims. He believes that the Scottish people are more than capable of running there own Country. So do I and Salmond, much to everyones surprise has got nearly half the Country now believing this can happen. If not tomorrow then it will be soon ( 10 /15 years ) maybe nearer 10 if Dave gets in and the next round of austerity kicks in. Not to mention the Pledge of the 3 stooges going in the bin. When the dust settles only one campaign will get any credit. Salmond will go down in history as the man who, more than any other, made Scotland believe it could happen

[Comfy Bean]

they're great comedy for the reader's comments - particularly under UKIP stories.

It was me laughing at the nutters under newspaper articles which ended up hooking me into the indyref thing.

I think we all know what ( who ) got you hooked sir

[Comfy Bean]

Alex Salmond is Herod and I claim my £5

So who is taking betting on there being a Scottish brawl somewhere tomorrow as passions, and Buckfast runneth over.

You forgot to mention Irn Bru swilling Haggis munchers.

[5co77ie]

2 Billy`s entered the debate today. Clinton.....well you can guess and the views of Billy Bragg :

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/scottish-nationalism-british-westminster-class

Bragg's view is no surprise he's been bandying a link to this for days:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/12/scotland-vote-braveheart-nationalism-democracy-independence

what he fails to argue about, or even mention, is the one thing Neil keeps returning to in this thread (I've read it now) the finances.

Bragg is part of the Lib Dem thinking that believes that it's all about democracy:

Power lies only in part with elected governments, whether in London, Edinburgh or even Washington. It also lies with global corporations, with media monopolies, with unaccountable oligarchies, with mighty financial industries immune even to their own reckless follies. Hence the real question that Scots have to decide: will independence shift the balance of power away from oligarchy and towards democracy?

But the reality is it's just about wealth.

[MichaelsBeard]

Prediction time?

I'll go - No 56% Yes 44%. 83% turnout.

[5co77ie]

Prediction time?

I'll go - No 56% Yes 44%. 83% turnout.

Sounds about right I think narrower, and a bigger turnout:

I'll go - No 53% Yes 47%. 89% turnout.

[atomised]

No 54%. Yes 46%. 85% turnout

[Stash]

Erm .....No !

Just catching up on all your info today sir. You have been a busy bee ! One things stands out, it`s all history. This got me thinking. The Empire, Union, UK - they are all history. Scotland is looking to the future. You are like that Gargamel dude chasing after the Smurfs ! A Positive vision for Scotlands future is what Salmond has been on about. Fairer and better are his aims. He believes that the Scottish people are more than capable of running there own Country. So do I and Salmond, much to everyones surprise has got nearly half the Country now believing this can happen. If not tomorrow then it will be soon ( 10 /15 years ) maybe nearer 10 if Dave gets in and the next round of austerity kicks in. Not to mention the Pledge of the 3 stooges going in the bin. When the dust settles only one campaign will get any credit. Salmond will go down in history as the man who, more than any other, made Scotland believe it could happen

I'm sorry but this is just glib nonsense.

There is a George Santayana quote perfect for the occasion: Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

The data presented today shows the current available financial data for Scotland as well as a number of social attitudes surveys etc. To glibly dismiss it as history is unworthy. You may as well have stuck to the scaremongering line, at least it is easier to believe from you.

A yes vote is not likely to bring you the panacea you are hoping for. You are not being given the choice between a red and blue pill with some magic powers to right humanities wrongs. You will start off from a worse position that today and whether you are successful in the short, never mind the long term will be as much luck as anything else.

I understand that you want to seceded from the union more than anything, but why not just be honest. Recognise the figures and consequences for what they are and challenge those pretending to you that they don't exist or are only there to scare you away from your much desired secession. Wouldn't you prefer to actually have some of these things prepared for rather than making such a folly as a leap into the unknown?

[CHRLY]

No 58% Yes 42% Turnout 86%

[LJS]

The whole thing is a bit of a mess...

If they vote Yes we get all the shit we have been talking about for the last year...

If they vote No we move into a situation where just less than half the country voted to leave, the half that voted to stay based on empty promises from the UK government that they possibly can not deliver and even if it could, they have made undemocratic guarantees regarding the Barnett formula...

Add to this mix the growing ill feeling in England at the over representation and funding Scotland gets in comparison to England.

Come Friday no one is going to feel like a winner I imagine...

A big thank you to the SNP...

Whatever the result Scotland is potentially the winner. It will have a massive pool of energised, passionate & committed people who, even if they lose by a small margin, have changed the face of Scottish politics an d actually force politicians to engage with the people in a real way for the first time in years.

Of course some of them will drift back to apathy, but surely not all & if enough of them keep their enthusiasm they could change the face of Scottish politics for ever.