Kneecap

[TheDayman]

13 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Yet Isreal is far from the most evil oppressor in our world and you want to put context and historical perspective around rape, kidnap and murder.

Hamas war crimes on Oct 7 justify a response to recover hostages and remove Hamas. The Isreali response includes war crimes like withholding aid and killing aid workers and civilians without a military target. I condemn all these war crimes. But war is hell and innocent civilians die. Those deaths are lawful proportionate to the overall aim. So it can be proportionate to bomb an apartment block if Hamas leaders are inside. It is not proportionate to bomb an apartment block without Hamas inside.

Saying “war is hell and innocent civilians will die”, and then defending civilian deaths as lawful and proportionate to excuse Israel's actions is abhorrent.

You can’t claim to condemn war crimes and then justify the bombing of apartment blocks as “lawful” because someone might be inside? Don't you see the hypocrisy in that?

Also, your understanding of proportionality is completely wrong and not how it works under international law - it’s not a loophole for mass civilian deaths.

Writing off a genocide as “War is hell” is a complete failure to take responsibility. If Hamas’ crimes don’t excuse killing civilians, then neither should Israel’s justifications.
 

[lazyred]

Just now, kaosmark2 said:

To be clear, no comments comparing any side involved in what is happening in Israel-Palestine to the Nazis will be permitted on eFestivals. Seriously. Don't Godwin's Law this topic of all topics.

Understood. My main point was to show how a proportionate response in war can involve civilian deaths.

[CaledonianGonzo]

8 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Understood. My main point was to show how a proportionate response in war can involve civilian deaths.

 

Repeating myself, but it's not a war when one side has an army, a navy, and an air force kitted out with state of the art weaponry including cyber-surveillance, drone fleets and AI systems like Gospel, Lavender and Where's Daddy - and the other side are largely armed with handguns, sticks, stones, fireworks and kites.

 

Even without that disparity, genocide can never be considered 'proportionate'

[lazyred]

9 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

Also, your understanding of proportionality is completely wrong and not how it works under international law - it’s not a loophole for mass civilian deaths.

Neither is it a bar to any action that may result in civilian deaths if they aren't the intended target. Its got to be proportional to the military objective.

[Physical_graffiti]

7 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Neither is it a bar to any action that may result in civilian deaths if they aren't the intended target. Its got to be proportional to the military objective.

Israel have been bombing refugee camps and executing medical workers. They drone attacked an aid ship in international waters last week. They are the intended targets.

Edited May 6, 2025 by Physical_graffiti

[lazyred]

Just now, Physical_graffiti said:

Israel have been bombing refugee camps and executing medial workers. They drone attacked an aid ship in international waters last week. They are the intended targets.

I said similar myself and I condemned it as a war crime.

[TheDayman]

4 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Neither is it a bar to any action that may result in civilian deaths if they aren't the intended target. Its got to be proportional to the military objective.

Sorry, but we’re not debating hypotheticals here.

I didn't think I'd need to remind anyone that the ICJ has already found it plausible that Israel's actions in Gaza could amount to genocide, and that the ICC is currently pursuing arrest warrants for Israeli officials over alleged war crimes, including the intentional targeting of civilians and use of starvation as a weapon.

This isn’t a difference of opinion, these are findings from the world’s highest legal authorities.

...unless of course, you're going to argue that both the ICJ and ICC are wrong?

[lazyred]

2 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

Sorry, but we’re not debating hypotheticals here.

I didn't think I'd need to remind anyone that the ICJ has already found it plausible that Israel's actions in Gaza could amount to genocide, and that the ICC is currently pursuing arrest warrants for Israeli officials over alleged war crimes, including the intentional targeting of civilians and use of starvation as a weapon.

This isn’t a difference of opinion, these are findings from the world’s highest legal authorities.

...unless of course, you're going to argue that both the ICJ and ICC are wrong?

Nope I hope Netanyahu is arrested and put on trial. The ICC also issued warrants for war crimes against Hamas officials. I think Hamas war crimes justify a response but the response should be lawful. 

 

[TheDayman]

11 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Nope I hope Netanyahu is arrested and put on trial. The ICC also issued warrants for war crimes against Hamas officials. I think Hamas war crimes justify a response but the response should be lawful. 

 

It's good that we can agree on that, however, I still completely disagree with your interpretation of proportionality. A response isn’t automatically lawful just because it follows an act of terror.

And that’s why the ICJ and ICC are involved - because there’s credible evidence that limits have been crossed.
 

[Levitz]

4 hours ago, Nicklord said:

It's not about justifying what Israel is doing. Nobody is saying Israel is a good guy here, at least I didn't see. It's about the number of people like you who defend or even support Hamas/Hezbollah just because, at this very moment, they're killing fewer people than Israel.

 

Supporting those groups who openly have their agenda to kill everyone in Israel because they're descendants of monkeys and pigs can't be seen as supporting the good guys. 

 

Supporting people in Palestine to achieve and live normal lives doesn't mean we should support those groups.

‘At this moment’ in total, before Oct 7th  have Palestinians killed, maimed and held hostage (detained without trial or charge) more Israelis than Israel has killed, maimed and held hostage (detained without trial or charge) Palestinians? 

[Levitz]

4 hours ago, The_Fish said:

 

No, it doesn't. But their abhorrent views and behaviour means I can never be pro-Palestine, just as I'll never be Pro-Israel. 

 

Believing that Palestine is some haven of peace, if it wasn't for Israel is something I struggle to comprehend. They have kids dancing at the coffins of Israeli children. 

 

I believe that Israel has the military capability to end all life in Gaza and some of those in Government would like to do so, but that the majority of people there want to live in peace. I think if Hamas had the capability to end all life in Israel, we'd have a f**kload of dead Jews. 

 

There is no war of good vs evil, the oppressor vs the oppressed.  

In the midst of an active genocide you are having imaginary thoughts about Hamas having a) the desire b) the ability to ‘end life in Israel’.

the pM, government ministers talk show hosts in Israel are openly discussing Gaza with genocidal intent and language. 
 

wtf is wrong with you? 
 

and thus has always been Netanyahu’s position. 
 

if we blame the Palestinians for electing Hamas, once, in elections demanded by the US (when Israel was actively undermining the PLO) why do we ignore/absolve Israeli’s for the repeated election of the worst kind of people in Israel? The apartheid towards ‘Arabs’. An Israeli (supported by current govt ministers) assassinated Rabin ffs. 

[Levitz]

4 hours ago, The_Fish said:

 

What Israel is doing in the West Bank is abhorrent and pressure should be applied on them to stop further settling and killing for sure.

They have never stopped settling the West Bank. They made the 2 state solutions completely unviable while people in the west are still daydreaming about it. No pressure is being put in Israel to do anything. It hasn’t been for years. 

[Mand3]

I've just seen a clip of Trump saying we are going to help Gaza get some food and saying Hamas are taking everything brought in. 

 

So really taking over Gaza is just doing them a favour 🙄. 

 

 

[lazyred]

2 hours ago, TheDayman said:

It's good that we can agree on that, however, I still completely disagree with your interpretation of proportionality. A response isn’t automatically lawful just because it follows an act of terror.

And that’s why the ICJ and ICC are involved - because there’s credible evidence that limits have been crossed.
 

I agree, any response has to be lawful and there's credible evidence that limits have been crossed by Israel. The flip side of Gaza coming under the International Courts protection is that the Gaza Authorities also have to follow the same rules.

Here's what Human Rights Watch say about targeting Hamas leaders in their homes. My TL;DR is that its difficult to justify but not completely banned.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/09/questions-and-answers-october-2023-hostilities-between-israel-and-palestinian-armed#Ten

 

The ICC chief prosecutor wrote this in the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/10/law-israel-hamas-international-criminal-court-icc

 

They [Israel] will need to demonstrate that any attack that harms innocent civilians or protected objects is conducted in accordance with the laws and customs of armed conflict. They will need to demonstrate the proper application of the principles of distinction, precaution and proportionality.

For those responsible for targeting and firing missiles, I wish to be clear on three points in particular. One: in relation to every dwelling house, in relation to any school, any hospital, any church, any mosque – those places are protected, unless the protective status has been lost because they are being used for military purposes. Two: if there is a doubt that a civilian object has lost its protective status, the attacker must assume that it is protected. Three: the burden of demonstrating that this protective status is lost rests with those who fire the gun, the missile, or the rocket in question.

In this context, I would also underline that the indiscriminate firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel may represent breaches of international humanitarian law subject to the jurisdiction of the ICC.

 

 

 

[Levitz]

13 minutes ago, lazyred said:

I agree, any response has to be lawful and there's credible evidence that limits have been crossed by Israel. The flip side of Gaza coming under the International Courts protection is that the Gaza Authorities also have to follow the same rules.

Here's what Human Rights Watch say about targeting Hamas leaders in their homes. My TL;DR is that its difficult to justify but not completely banned.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/09/questions-and-answers-october-2023-hostilities-between-israel-and-palestinian-armed#Ten

 

The ICC chief prosecutor wrote this in the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/10/law-israel-hamas-international-criminal-court-icc

 

They [Israel] will need to demonstrate that any attack that harms innocent civilians or protected objects is conducted in accordance with the laws and customs of armed conflict. They will need to demonstrate the proper application of the principles of distinction, precaution and proportionality.

For those responsible for targeting and firing missiles, I wish to be clear on three points in particular. One: in relation to every dwelling house, in relation to any school, any hospital, any church, any mosque – those places are protected, unless the protective status has been lost because they are being used for military purposes. Two: if there is a doubt that a civilian object has lost its protective status, the attacker must assume that it is protected. Three: the burden of demonstrating that this protective status is lost rests with those who fire the gun, the missile, or the rocket in question.

In this context, I would also underline that the indiscriminate firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel may represent breaches of international humanitarian law subject to the jurisdiction of the ICC.

 

 

 

Presumably you'd be content with Hamas targeting the apartment blocks of all IDF soldiers as they return to their families and the blocks surroundy IDF bases, eg in Tel Aviv?

 

Luckily as the occupier and controlling force in Gaza, Israel have control the population registry and of every person in Gaza. Yet they still manage to indiscriminanly kill civilians and level neighbourhoods and city blocks. 

Edited May 6, 2025 by Levitz

[Physical_graffiti]

1 hour ago, lazyred said:

I agree, any response has to be lawful and there's credible evidence that limits have been crossed by Israel. The flip side of Gaza coming under the International Courts protection is that the Gaza Authorities also have to follow the same rules.

Here's what Human Rights Watch say about targeting Hamas leaders in their homes. My TL;DR is that its difficult to justify but not completely banned.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/09/questions-and-answers-october-2023-hostilities-between-israel-and-palestinian-armed#Ten

 

The ICC chief prosecutor wrote this in the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/10/law-israel-hamas-international-criminal-court-icc

 

They [Israel] will need to demonstrate that any attack that harms innocent civilians or protected objects is conducted in accordance with the laws and customs of armed conflict. They will need to demonstrate the proper application of the principles of distinction, precaution and proportionality.

For those responsible for targeting and firing missiles, I wish to be clear on three points in particular. One: in relation to every dwelling house, in relation to any school, any hospital, any church, any mosque – those places are protected, unless the protective status has been lost because they are being used for military purposes. Two: if there is a doubt that a civilian object has lost its protective status, the attacker must assume that it is protected. Three: the burden of demonstrating that this protective status is lost rests with those who fire the gun, the missile, or the rocket in question.

In this context, I would also underline that the indiscriminate firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel may represent breaches of international humanitarian law subject to the jurisdiction of the ICC.

 

 

 

if a known dangerous terrorist was tracked down to working in an office block where a family member of yours worked, and the British authorities felt they had to act so he didn't get away - would you be happy with them levelling the building?

[SheffJeff]

1 hour ago, lazyred said:

I agree, any response has to be lawful and there's credible evidence that limits have been crossed by Israel. The flip side of Gaza coming under the International Courts protection is that the Gaza Authorities also have to follow the same rules.

Here's what Human Rights Watch say about targeting Hamas leaders in their homes. My TL;DR is that its difficult to justify but not completely banned.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/09/questions-and-answers-october-2023-hostilities-between-israel-and-palestinian-armed#Ten

 

The ICC chief prosecutor wrote this in the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/10/law-israel-hamas-international-criminal-court-icc

 

They [Israel] will need to demonstrate that any attack that harms innocent civilians or protected objects is conducted in accordance with the laws and customs of armed conflict. They will need to demonstrate the proper application of the principles of distinction, precaution and proportionality.

For those responsible for targeting and firing missiles, I wish to be clear on three points in particular. One: in relation to every dwelling house, in relation to any school, any hospital, any church, any mosque – those places are protected, unless the protective status has been lost because they are being used for military purposes. Two: if there is a doubt that a civilian object has lost its protective status, the attacker must assume that it is protected. Three: the burden of demonstrating that this protective status is lost rests with those who fire the gun, the missile, or the rocket in question.

In this context, I would also underline that the indiscriminate firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel may represent breaches of international humanitarian law subject to the jurisdiction of the ICC.

Both of these links are over 18 months old and in that time alot has changed. On the human Rights Watch website there are countless articles since the one you reference detailing Israeli war crimes and Karim Khan has issued arrest warrants against Netanyahu And Gallant since that article was posted for war crimes in Gaza.

[Nicklord]

3 hours ago, Levitz said:

‘At this moment’ in total, before Oct 7th  have Palestinians killed, maimed and held hostage (detained without trial or charge) more Israelis than Israel has killed, maimed and held hostage (detained without trial or charge) Palestinians? 

I don't want to measure the number of people killed. That leads to nowhere. Where I come from (exYugoslavia) that's a national sport. Who killed more and when and getting the history straight. That was not my point.

 

My point was that Hamas is, in general, weaker than Israel so they killed fewer people than Israel. That's the only reason for that. Not because they're good guys in this war. There are no good guys in this conflict. Hamas shouldn't be supported, as Israel shouldn't be supported either.

 

It's not some mental gymnastics to say that. Do you know why? Because that's what they openly admit and openly say, and in the end, they organized and did numerous attacks on civilians - even Palestinians who oppose them. Terrorist attacks from Hamas didn't stop on Oct 7th.

Edited May 6, 2025 by Nicklord

[Skip997]

2 minutes ago, Nicklord said:

 attacks* from Hamas in Israel didn't stop on Oct 7th.

* Terrorist removed 

Edited May 6, 2025 by Skip997

[Levitz]

14 minutes ago, Nicklord said:

I don't want to measure the number of people killed. That leads to nowhere. Where I come from (exYugoslavia) that's a national sport. Who killed more and when and getting the history straight. That was not my point.

 

My point was that Hamas is, in general, weaker than Israel so they killed fewer people than Israel. That's the only reason for that. Not because they're good guys in this war. There are no good guys in this conflict. Hamas shouldn't be supported, as Israel shouldn't be supported either.

 

It's not some mental gymnastics to say that. Do you know why? Because that's what they openly admit and openly say, and in the end, they organized and did numerous attacks on civilians - even Palestinians who oppose them. Terrorist attacks from Hamas didn't stop on Oct 7th.

 

Under international law an occupied people have the right to resist, including through armed struggle. 

 

I don't think that hamas rockets into Israel, while the Palestinians are being subject to genocide in Gaza and apartheid and systematic violence in the West Bank and East Jerusalem,  can be viewed as terrorist. 

 

The Warsaw ghetto uprising. The Nat Turner rebellion. All violent and somewhat hopeless acts by oppressed people that we now think are great, and heroic acts of resistance. 

 

To be clear, I do not support Hamas, like I didn't support the IRA while being bombed in London and Manchester, but I did and do understand their struggle. 

 

 

[TheDayman]

As we argue back and forth over the complicated context that led Kneecap to say what they said, whether or not Israel's response to Oct 7th has been proportionate, and what - in my opinion - has become a silly conversation focused more on Hamas than on the humanitarian disaster unfolding in Gaza, Israel's Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich has taken time this afternoon to make some pretty terrifying statements.
 

Today, Smotrich stated that Gaza will be "entirely destroyed," civilians will be sent to a "humanitarian zone," and from there, "they will start to leave in great numbers to third countries."
 

If that's not the definition of ethnic cleansing, then I don't know what is.
 

I've grown rather tired of these circular arguments. Anger drove Kneecap to say what they said. What they said was wrong, but their anger was justified.
 

Israel is committing genocide - any normal person can see that. And frankly, I'm shocked that people can agree with that statement and still follow up with, "yeah, but Hamas = bad."
 

We all know Hamas is bad. Right now, though, Israel is far, far worse.

We should all be as angry as Kneecap.

 

Edited May 6, 2025 by TheDayman

[clasher]

9 hours ago, steviewevie said:

well yeah..ok...and the arabs wants israel gone.

But here we are. Zionist jews followed by Jewish refugees were going to Palestine when it was under British rule. There was always a divide in zionish between the more idealist utopia communist types which just thought the Arabs wouldn't be a problem and were almost a side thought. and the more aggressive revisionist zionism which was a minority back then but was more expansionist and thought the Arabs don't want us we have to physically take the land...and this lot evolved into Likud. Then came the holocaust and western guilt and the british mandate was ending and in 48 UN decided to partition Palestine into Arab and Jewish states, a year before had seen the India/Pakistan partition so it was a bit of a thing. The Jews were fully on board, the Arabs weren't. Then came Nakba and the war which the Jews won and it has been a disaster for Palestinian Arabs ever since. I think the UN, along with some western and arab countries. carries a lot of responsibility,with this, it has been an utter disaster.

Anyway, my point was and is that before Oct 7th those kids and young people in Gaza could go to school, they could go to University, could set up a business, could get married, could have a life...all be it with restrictions on their movement from Israel, and the some times there would be fighting and bombs, but aid and support was there. But since Oct 7th that has all gone, now they are desperate people, many with no homes, the kids have no schools, there are no hospitals, the UN and world does nothing (or not enough), and they are starving...and this is why on the whole people are most upset globally, it is a humanitarian disaster playing out and Israel are still getting aid and support from US and others and there is inaction.

And Hamas, who are still there, who still are holding hostages, whatever their reason for those attacks, whatever they were trying to achieve, and that attack was well planned and they knew who was in the current Israeli government and surely knew there would be massive and devastating reprisals, those attacks have been an unmitigated failure for the Palestinians in Gaza, but also in West Bank.

 

One side violently displaced about 750.000 people in 1948. People that lived there for generations and coexisted relatively peacefully with the Jewish minority up to that point. They killed, raped, looted, burned villages, poisoned wells, all under the motto of "A land without a people for a people without a land". Except the land absolutely wasn't without a people. The modern state of Israel is founded on blood, lies and injustice.

 

Furthermore, one side "accepted" the two-state plan, while planning further expansion. One side to this day continues the illegal occupation. One side is running an apartheid regime. One side is committing genocide as we speak.

 

That side is not Hamas.

 

Hamas is a violent and evil organization that should answer for the atrocities they committed, but they are a product of a desperate situation of literally millions of people that haven't had a prospect of a peaceful life in decades.

 

We can agree neither Israeli government nor Hamas are a force for good, but equating them is laughable and disingenuous. 

[steviewevie]

well, as well as genocide, looks like we're going to get another Nakba. Everything seems to rest on what US/Trump does, which is absurd. Where is Europe, where is China, where is Turkey, where is Saudi Arabia? The difference between now and 1948 is we all see it now. There needs to be an intervention.

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, clasher said:

 

One side violently displaced about 750.000 people in 1948. People that lived there for generations and coexisted relatively peacefully with the Jewish minority up to that point. They killed, raped, looted, burned villages, poisoned wells, all under the motto of "A land without a people for a people without a land". Except the land absolutely wasn't without a people. The modern state of Israel is founded on blood, lies and injustice.

 

Furthermore, one side "accepted" the two-state plan, while planning further expansion. One side to this day continues the illegal occupation. One side is running an apartheid regime. One side is committing genocide as we speak.

 

That side is not Hamas.

 

Hamas is a violent and evil organization that should answer for the atrocities they committed, but they are a product of a desperate situation of literally millions of people that haven't had a prospect of a peaceful life in decades.

 

We can agree neither Israeli government nor Hamas are a force for good, but equating them is laughable and disingenuous. 

yeah...so I think UN needs to take more responsibility...they partitioned the land with agreement of the global superpowers, but not with the palestinians and other regional powers. Partitioning is complicated, if do it then for a start needs agreement from all sides, and then needs managing. There have been problems with India and Pakistan, and problems in Korea, but none come as close or as contentious as this split between Jews and Arabs in Palestine.

So, what is the solution? Either one side wins completely...which is where we're heading...or there is a two state solution which takes leadership from both sides as well as globally...and what do we have...Netanyahu and a government of extremists, a divided and fundamentally f**ked PLO with Fatah and then an Iran backed Hamas, Trump in the Whitehouse with a very pro Israel administration behind him, and a world that basically doesn't want to upset Trump and doesn't know what the f**k to do.

We can't go back to 1947 or 1916 and say thing again.

I just think surrounding Arab countries need to run Palestine before they can run themselves, US should provide Israel's security, Netanyahu needs to go, and we just take tentative steps towards reconciliation and peace. What else is there?

Edited May 6, 2025 by steviewevie

[steviewevie]

and I'll say again but I know it pisses people off...I don't think this would be happening unless the Oct 7th attacks had happened.