news & politics:discussion

[fraybentos1]

7 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

Give the Ozzane stuff a rest please ... he’s not responding to your baiting ... it’s not unreasonable to disagree but the constant stuff is a bit ridiculous now ... on the polls thing ... if it were to  translate to football I’d be shouting from the roof top if and when my team are doing well and quieter when they aren’t ... so as much as it’s one sided it does make sense 

None of what I said is untrue and I’m not baiting him, it’s a political discussion he doesn’t want to hear cause it doesn’t conform to him ‘starmer is amazing perspective’.

if he has me on ignore he won’t see it anyway 

[fraybentos1]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Not popular enough to win.the tories increased their vote by more than labour did.

Also polling on single issues isn’t hugely relevant. It’s a number of policies people vote on in the form Of a manifesto. If it becomes unrealistic people won’t vote for it.

[fraybentos1]

19 minutes ago, mcshed said:

Most polls posted by Ozanne may show Labour leads but you are not the only person who posts competing polls so in fact most polls posted in this and previously the Coronavirus thread don't show Labour leads. Which in and of itself is fine, as you say a broad picture is the best way to interpret polls but every time a non pro-Labour poll is posted it comes with this silly caveat about how these polls never get talked about on here. It is the nonsense gaslighting of right wing commentators complaining about being cancelled or silenced whilst the right own most of the media in microcosm.

If you want all polls to be posted here that's fine, if you only think polls with huge Tory leads should be posted here that's fine but what I take umbrage with is the idea that only Labour leads are seen here, that is nonsense.

I’m a Labour voter and will be voting Labour both votes in may. 
 

we are going to have to agree to disagree on whether polls are posted selectively on here- it seems clear to me. 

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, fraybentos1 said:

None of what I said is untrue and I’m not baiting him, it’s a political discussion he doesn’t want to hear cause it doesn’t conform to him ‘starmer is amazing perspective’.

if he has me on ignore he won’t see it anyway 

It’s not just this thread though ... and you completely missed my point in the response ... but as you were ... if you enjoy a discussion with someone that has you on ignore carry on ... 

[mattiloy]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Not popular enough to win.the tories increased their vote by more than labour did elections are not about single issues but a govt to deal with all issues.

Well, centrist politics are hardly turning people on either, look how well the lib dems or The Independent Group for Change did..

I think its largely a personality contest and about hitting the mood of the issue of the day tbh* and unfortunately Starmer and the right of the party don’t have one between them.

*Which for the last two elections was Brexit, but much more in 2019 after all the failed deals as the deadline was fast approaching.

2024 will be absolutely ripe for a progressive assault of the unfairness and inequity of the UK system in a post brexit, post covid world. Again unfortunately it looks like Starmer hasn’t got the plums for it and instead is going down a tories but with sure start route.

[squirrelarmy]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

Any other leader would be 20 points ahead.

If only we had the magic grandpa at the helm 🙄

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

ink its largely a personality contest an

It was always clear why Corbyn's personality was all wrong.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Well, centrist politics are hardly turning people on either, look how well the lib dems or The Independent Group for Change did..

I think its largely a personality contest and about hitting the mood of the issue of the day tbh* and unfortunately Starmer and the right of the party don’t have one between them.

*Which for the last two elections was Brexit, but much more in 2019 after all the failed deals as the deadline was fast approaching.

2024 will be absolutely ripe for a progressive assault of the unfairness and inequity of the UK system in a post brexit, post covid world. Again unfortunately it looks like Starmer hasn’t got the plums for it and instead is going down a tories but with sure start route.

An assault on the post brexit world will be telling the voter's they're wrong.

[fraybentos1]

17 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

It’s not just this thread though ... and you completely missed my point in the response ... but as you were ... if you enjoy a discussion with someone that has you on ignore carry on ... 

I disagree with lots of what he says. It’s a discussion forum!

Also he might have be on ignore but clearly reads every post I make lol 

[mcshed]

37 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

we are going to have to agree to disagree on whether polls are posted selectively on here- it seems clear to me. 

So I've gone through this entire thread, it only started in February so not that big a picture but there have been 18 polling posts with polls about either Labour or Starmer, it really doesn't look like a pro-Labour bias does it?

 

On 2/18/2021 at 6:11 PM, steviewevie said:

 

 

On 2/27/2021 at 11:07 PM, steviewevie said:

Ah well. And even raising taxes is popular these days.

 

 

On 3/2/2021 at 2:35 PM, Gilgamesh69 said:

But CoRBYN wAs UnELectABlE!!!!!11!!11!

 

On 3/2/2021 at 2:49 PM, Ozanne said:

 

 

On 3/2/2021 at 3:40 PM, steviewevie said:

Ah.

 

On 3/2/2021 at 3:57 PM, mattiloy said:

Pathetic.

 

On 3/2/2021 at 7:06 PM, steviewevie said:

When it comes down to it Boris Johnson is lucky, and he is a winner...

 

 

On 3/4/2021 at 6:22 PM, mattiloy said:

..........

 

On 3/10/2021 at 8:00 PM, Ozanne said:

 

 

 

On 3/15/2021 at 12:37 PM, JoeyT said:

 

 

On 3/16/2021 at 12:07 PM, Ozanne said:

 

 

On 3/23/2021 at 9:20 AM, mattiloy said:

Having a suit and a haircut is not competence, it isn’t leadership.

Starmer is incompetent. Starmer is not a leader.

 

On 3/23/2021 at 6:05 PM, Ozanne said:

 

 

 

On 3/24/2021 at 9:41 AM, mattiloy said:

 

On 3/24/2021 at 11:22 AM, fraybentos1 said:

Predictably ignoring the last few polls which have been way worse:

But hey - don't let facts get in the way of your bizarre obsession with painting STarmer in the best light possible!

 

On 3/24/2021 at 8:47 PM, fraybentos1 said:

FYI this new one in too!

 

Just to give a more balanced picture 🙂

 

On 3/26/2021 at 6:31 PM, Ozanne said:

 

 

1 hour ago, fraybentos1 said:

Predictably haven't been posted in the thread yet. If you switched Labour and Tory around it would have been!

 

[Crazyfool01]

25 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

I disagree with lots of what he says. It’s a discussion forum!

Also he might have be on ignore but clearly reads every post I make lol 

Just some thoughts for you to mull over ... a discussion would be a discussion if he responded and didn’t have you on ignore ... and I know it’s tempting to read posts of people you still have on ignore ... I’ve done it myself on several occasions ... I’m a bit clueless as to why you think he clearly  reads all of your posts though ... that’s some kind of amazing trick to deduce that from someone that doesn’t respond to a single one ... 

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

Reports are that Starmer is going to replace Dodds with Rachel Reeves, I’m not sure if this will make much difference as it’s difficult in a pandemic to get out there and noticed. 

I think that was briefings from the right of the party, who funnily enough think Starmer is pandering to the left of the party and would like someone from the right like Reeves in there. Reeves is obviously been doing some manoeuvering and is ambitious, and maybe she'd do a good job there, I don't know. But, is it Dodds fault that party isn't doing too well in the polls and was seen to look weak in opposition to Sunak's budget? Or is that ultimately a Starmer problem. Anyway, I don't think anything is going to happen, not yet. People on the left and the right of the party are unhappy with Starmer...so like with criticism of the BBC, maybe he's doing something right.

[steviewevie]

People post polls which they favour...think that's fair enough. So, Ozanne may post polls with labour in the lead because he wants a labour win, and others like mattiloy and F Bentos like to post ones with tory leads because they want a tory win.

[mcshed]

8 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

People post polls which they favour...think that's fair enough. So, Ozanne may post polls with labour in the lead because he wants a labour win, and others like mattiloy and F Bentos like to post ones with tory leads because they want a tory win.

As I've said I've no issue with anyone posting any polls they like, I don't mind your obvious Tory ramping.  I just object to people complaining that only one kind of poll is posted.

[steviewevie]

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by steviewevie

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, mcshed said:

obvious Tory ramping

🤔

[mcshed]

9 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

🤔

In that run down of polls most you had posted where pro-Tory ones. Tongue was very much in cheek though as I assume you were when sighting mattiloy and fraybentos in a similar fashion.

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, mcshed said:

In that run down of polls most you had posted where pro-Tory ones. Tongue was very much in cheek though as I assume you were when sighting mattiloy and fraybentos in a similar fashion.

You double bluffed me. Dammit.

I mean, most polls since Starmer took over have had tory in the lead...it was only last autumn  where they were neck and neck with labour taking a small lead in a few, and then since the vaccine rollout at the start of the year the tory lead has increased again.

[mcshed]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

You double bluffed me. Dammit.

I mean, most polls since Starmer took over have had tory in the lead...it was only last autumn  where they were neck and neck with labour taking a small lead in a few, and then since the vaccine rollout at the start of the year the tory lead has increased again.

And the posts here reflect that so there is no sense in @fraybentos1 saying "yOu GuYs OnLy PoSt LaBoUr FrIeNdLy PoLlS"

[fraybentos1]

24 minutes ago, mcshed said:

And the posts here reflect that so there is no sense in @fraybentos1 saying "yOu GuYs OnLy PoSt LaBoUr FrIeNdLy PoLlS"

I didn’t say everyone. There are various extremes- mattiloy only posts ones which show starmer in a bad light cause he hates him.

The opposite applies to ozanne. All the ones you posted confirms this. 
 

I didn’t see the Stevie ones cause got him on ignore.

My point is fairly obvious. If you only post polls that back up ur view and miss out the others then you’re offering fuck all to any discussion. It isn’t actual information you’re presenting which is helpful, it’s just a snapshot which ingnores info to the contrary. 

[steviewevie]

12 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

I didn’t say everyone. There are various extremes- mattiloy only posts ones which show starmer in a bad light cause he hates him.

The opposite applies to ozanne. All the ones you posted confirms this. 
 

I didn’t see the Stevie ones cause got him on ignore.

My point is fairly obvious. If you only post polls that back up ur view and miss out the others then you’re offering fuck all to any discussion. It isn’t actual information you’re presenting which is helpful, it’s just a snapshot which ingnores info to the contrary. 

YOU HAVE ME ON IGNORE?! YOU w*nkER!

[mcshed]

40 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

I didn’t say everyone. There are various extremes- mattiloy only posts ones which show starmer in a bad light cause he hates him.

The opposite applies to ozanne. All the ones you posted confirms this. 
 

I didn’t see the Stevie ones cause got him on ignore.

My point is fairly obvious. If you only post polls that back up ur view and miss out the others then you’re offering fuck all to any discussion. It isn’t actual information you’re presenting which is helpful, it’s just a snapshot which ingnores info to the contrary. 

But the nature of a forum is that it has many voices and so all views are being put forward yet it's only you who posts saying "this is needed for balance."

I actually disagree that polls are only worth talking about if you post every single one, the first polls taken after significant events are interesting and ones that produce unexpected results are interesting but yes the best picture is gained by taking them as a collective. Individually they all make for perfectly sensible conversation points in a political discussion on a forum.

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by mcshed

[fraybentos1]

5 minutes ago, mcshed said:

But the nature of a forum is that it has many voices and so all views are being put forward yet it's only you who posts saying "this is needed for balance."

I actually disagree that polls are only worth talking about if you post every single one, the first polls taken after significant events are interesting and ones that produce unexpected results are interesting but yes the best picture is gained by taking them as a collective. Individually they all make for perfectly sensible conversation points in a political discussion of a forum.

 

But when it comes to polls it isn't about views being put forward is it? It's about information being available to show how people are going to vote which is reliable to within margin of error. All polls are needed for balance or at least for people to not just post them for point scoring and cause it backs up their views.

I don't agree that single ones alone can tell us much, it is about trends. Clearly the tories are leading by a bit atm. You could tale two polls from the same company at identical times and get different results- it doesn't tell us anything other than a poll of 1000 people is usually accurate within -/+ 3 %

[DeanoL]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Lefties are not the answer unless the UK gets a different electorate.

But the electorate want the Tories so by that logic we can't win.

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

An assault on the post brexit world will be telling the voter's they're wrong.

You realise there was no support for Brexit in the UK ten years ago, right? You realise there probably wasn't even a majority of support for it the day the referendum was announced?

Farage and Gove and that whole lot won the referendum by *changing people's minds*. Brexit happened because a group of people decided they didn't like the status quo, and were going to convince the public it was wrong. And they succeeded. Their methods were certainly questionable but their results are not.

[mcshed]

9 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

But when it comes to polls it isn't about views being put forward is it? It's about information being available to show how people are going to vote which is reliable to within margin of error. All polls are needed for balance or at least for people to not just post them for point scoring and cause it backs up their views.

I don't agree that single ones alone can tell us much, it is about trends. Clearly the tories are leading by a bit atm. You could tale two polls from the same company at identical times and get different results- it doesn't tell us anything other than a poll of 1000 people is usually accurate within -/+ 3 %

That is certainly the most effective way of assessing the views of the nation, but after a big event like say when restrictions are properly released I'll be more interested that normal to see what the polls look like.

As a starting point for a conversation each poll is as relevent as any other, a relevent response might be that the poll in question looks like an outlier.

What I object to is posting polling saying this is needed for balance when it is perfectly in line with much else on the thread.

This argument has gone on too long and is starting to stank up the thread.