Emily vs. The Gammons

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

4 minutes ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

Wow, for real?

Yes.

Did you read the articles I posted?

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

6 minutes ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

Wow, for real?

Obviously, it's not a one size fits all explanation, but in general terms it's pretty true.

[SwedgeAntilles]

4 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Yes.

Did you read the articles I posted?

I did, you don't think it's extremely simplistic to say that women simply 'choose' to study in lower paying professions? You don't think there's deep historic, societal issues which discourage them from studying the subjects you mentioned?

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

More women go to university than men

and of the men and women who don't go to university, who do you think has the (average) shittest pay, and why?

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

Just now, SwedgeAntilles said:

I did, you don't think it's extremely simplistic to say that women simply 'choose' to study in lower paying professions? You don't think there's deep historic, societal issues which discourage them from studying the subjects you mentioned?

I don't think many deep historic elements come into play when choosing what you like to do. I'm a man and chose to study history, which is really poorly paid - I'm mid-thirties and I still make mediocre money. If I wanted to study and make tonnes of money, I should have chosen what my sister decided to study - accounting. But it's interesting right that in Scandinavia for example, they are even more progressive than the UK, but they have higher disparities between STEM subjects and non-Stem subjects?

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

I don't think many deep historic elements come into play when choosing what you like to do.

so you played with dollies all thru your teens? Or did gender stereotyping cause you to swerve that one?

Maybe it works much the same for women...?

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

and of the men and women who don't go to university, who do you think has the (average) shittest pay, and why?

Of people who don't go to university, it's women who earn less on an absolute basis. But there are more reasons than just sexism. Women work fewer hours for example. The office of national statistics says that on average, women work four hours less than men. Women also are more likely to do more care work than men, or work part time and care for the children, while men do harder (I mena physically hard) jobs in sewers and on construction sites etc - which are more dangerous and then they get paid more for that physical labour/dangerous work, because of the risk involved. Would you agree with that?

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

so you played with dollies all thru your teens? Or did gender stereotyping cause you to swerve that one?

Maybe it works much the same for women...?

Actually, no. I played with Lego and Mechanno a lot and assembled model airplanes which I hung from my room etc. I played video games on my Amiga 500+ too. But at university, by the time I had become an adult and had freewill, I chose to study History, got a 2:2 and shifted into poorly paid work but with flexible hours. My childhood toys when I was 3 - 12 didn't play a big part in my decision making.

I suppose if you want to take the whole society structures route, you'd have to ask what came first, the chicken or the egg. Do young girls play with dolls because they're told to, or do they play with dolls because they want to, but I think that's a different argument to choosing uni subjects myself

Edited April 4, 2019 by MEGATRONICMEATWAGON
Mechano not Mechno

[Quark]

28 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Why is it that when someone offers an opposing view and doesn't just further the narrative get slammed as a troll? That's a great way to have a dialogue.

More women go to university than men and everyone has the freedom to choose what they want to study. Women can study what they want and so can men. How is that not a life choice? Perhaps you could tell me what the pay gap is down to in your opinion instead of just insulting me?

I haven't even started insulting you yet, so don't try and turn it on its head.  I clearly said I can't tell if you're trolling. That's a question, not an accusation. But sure, let's play the game.

Studies and articles showing that women are consistently paid less thane men for doing the same job:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jwebb/2016/03/31/women-are-still-paid-less-than-men-even-in-the-same-job/#69998b784709

https://hired.com/page/wage-inequality-report/

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/research-finds-women-paid-less-than-men-in-90-of-sectors

Short little article on busting the myths on equal pay

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/business/6-myths-equal-pay-comebacks-need-shoot/

So yeah, given the massive overwhelming evidence of gender pay gaps, asking if you're trolling is a pretty reasonable question. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by Quark

[Doug85]

Wow I dont even know where to start with all of this so I'll just say big respect to all of those who have shared their experiences and had the guts to do so. I know a lot of us stand with you. As I'm a bit late and not sure what to advise: 

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

you'd have to ask what came first, the chicken or the egg

which isn't being asked if dolls is what girls are given, and dolls is what girls see girls doing. It becomes a self-determining thing.

(I'm hoping you can see how my simplistic analogy of children is what happens for adults too)

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

2 minutes ago, Quark said:

I haven't even started insulting you yet, so don't try and turn it on its head.

Thanks for the mild threat. 

3 minutes ago, Quark said:

Studies and articles showing that women are consistently paid less thane men for doing the same job:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jwebb/2016/03/31/women-are-still-paid-less-than-men-even-in-the-same-job/#69998b784709

Okay, but the first article is about procurement, which is a bit different than most fixed contracts, as they generally work on commission basis. If men work longer hours getting more deals finalised, then that would explain the difference in salaries.
 

As for the rest of the articles none of them take into account previous experience, flexible working hours, overtime, commission etc. It's like in the entertainment industry. From the Cure, the Killers and Stormzy, I'd be surprised if they all get the same rate of pay, despite they're all doing the same "job". Doesn't that make sense?


The Carrie GRacie case was special too because she claimed she was being paid less than the North American editor for doing the same job, yet the two jobs had vastly different requirements and both had different experiences. Gracie was paid MORE when than the N. America editor in the beginning - and obv no one cared or made a fuss about that at the time - but when the BBC hired Jon Sopel to become the new N. America editor, he had a ton of experience working in that field, plus Sopel was on air twice as much as GRacie, despite them having the same "job". Do you see what I mean?

 

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

which isn't being asked if dolls is what girls are given, and dolls is what girls see girls doing. It becomes a self-determining thing.

(I'm hoping you can see how my simplistic analogy of children is what happens for adults too)

Well, I'm guessing most women who played with dolls in their childhood at some point later on become mothers, but I don't see why that's a bad thing in itself, if that's what you mean? The chance of that happening is prob pretty high too as most girls play with dolls at some point in their childhood, but I still don't think it determines what subjects women choose at uni. A lot of women go into mediince actually, but again that's connected to a "caring" role. Perhaps I haven't understood your point properly if I'm off on a tangent.

[eFestivals]

Just now, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Well, I'm guessing most women who played with dolls in their childhood at some point later on become mothers, but I don't see why that's a bad thing in itself, if that's what you mean? 

No. Try this instead.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-46931715

When a 4 year old forms the impression that particular jobs are for particular genders, what do think the wholesale effect is when teenagers are thinking about the job they'd do after leaving school?

[hfuhruhurr]

57 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Women go to university more than men

Because they're smarter than us.

Far too many men think "balls is best" when hiring, when promoting. That's why we need legislation and action to tackle this at every stage.

And probably why people on here are totally gobsmacked at your arguments for pay gaps. There is no excuse. There is no justification.

[Kay95]

Just catching up on this thread and I'm gobsmacked frankly. just wanted to say I appreciate all the people doing the hard yards trying to refute these bullsh*t dismissals and denials of sexism, structural or otherwise, particularly @H.M.V  @Zoo Music Girl   @Gabi_says 

Edited April 4, 2019 by Kay95
typo

[Quark]

Just now, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Thanks for the mild threat. 

Okay, but the first article is about procurement, which is a bit different than most fixed contracts, as they generally work on commission basis. If men work longer hours getting more deals finalised, then that would explain the difference in salaries.
 

As for the rest of the articles none of them take into account previous experience, flexible working hours, overtime, commission etc. It's like in the entertainment industry. From the Cure, the Killers and Stormzy, I'd be surprised if they all get the same rate of pay, despite they're all doing the same "job". Doesn't that make sense?


The Carrie GRacie case was special too because she claimed she was being paid less than the North American editor for doing the same job, yet the two jobs had vastly different requirements and both had different experiences. Gracie was paid MORE when than the N. America editor in the beginning - and obv no one cared or made a fuss about that at the time - but when the BBC hired Jon Sopel to become the new N. America editor, he had a ton of experience working in that field, plus Sopel was on air twice as much as GRacie, despite them having the same "job". Do you see what I mean? 

 

It's not a mild threat. It's not even approaching a threat. I'm as threatening as a wet lettuce. My point was don't automatically turn it into "oh I'm being attacked" and make it out that everyone's being horrible to you.

I work in procurement. It's not generally on commission basis at all. If you could tell my boss I should be getting commission payment for finalising my contracts I'd appreciate it.

Re: Carrie Gracey the BBC told her she would be paid in line with Sopel when she took the role.  She also had 30 odd years of experience, which I'd personally class as a ton of experience as well.  And the BBC admitted they were wrong and paid her £280k in back pay.

As for the headliners piece, yes I'm sure some acts are paid more by Glastonbury than others.  In the same way I'd pay more to see some acts than I would others.  Bookers etc would, I assume, look at data on sales, streams, ticket sales, historic popularity etc and make a call on what is appropriate to pay an artists.  Will Sigrid be pad the same as KIllers?  Of course not, that would be silly.  They aren't doing the same job - Sigrid will be playing a far smaller catalogue of songs to a much smaller audience. But would I expect, for example, Beyoncé and Kanye to have been paid in a similar bracket? Yes I would, and I'd expect the fest to be able to justify the difference in either direction. And if it turns out that female acts on any stage are consistently being paid less than male acts performing at similar times on sikilar stages to similar crowds, again the festival has questions to answer.

This is about trends over time and comparing like for like in large samples of data to show average pictures over the population.  And those studies consistently show that a pay gap exists, and it's down to more than life choices.

[Doug85]

4 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Well, I'm guessing most women who played with dolls in their childhood at some point later on become mothers, but I don't see why that's a bad thing in itself, if that's what you mean? The chance of that happening is prob pretty high too as most girls play with dolls at some point in their childhood, but I still don't think it determines what subjects women choose at uni. A lot of women go into mediince actually, but again that's connected to a "caring" role. Perhaps I haven't understood your point properly if I'm off on a tangent.

I'm guessing he is trying to use a simple analogy of why girls are given dolls to play with as a child in the first place, same reason as to why boys are given GI Joe or Action Man to play with- It's this culture that is ingrained into society that causes issues later on in life. Same with the whole argument that a boys room should be blue and a girls room should be pink etc. These things are all historically ingrained into our minds but why do we do it? Unfortunately this manifests into other things later in life mentioned on the thread. 

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

No. Try this instead.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-46931715

When a 4 year old forms the impression that particular jobs are for particular genders, what do think the wholesale effect is when teenagers are thinking about the job they'd do after leaving school?

Yeah, but that girl is 4. I would bet my life savings on the fact she would realise women could be firefighters by the time she was 18

[Dave_c]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

No. Try this instead.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-46931715

When a 4 year old forms the impression that particular jobs are for particular genders, what do think the wholesale effect is when teenagers are thinking about the job they'd do after leaving school?

Honestly, I'm astonished that you think this is a credible story. You really think a four year old would ask that, or is Hannah Summers pushing an agenda and using her 4 year old daughter as bait. Similar to the woman posting that her daughter asked if man-size tissues were only for men.

[eFestivals]

Just now, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Yeah, but that girl is 4. I would bet my life savings on the fact she would realise women could be firefighters by the time she was 18

The girl is 4. Where the fuck has she picked up a sexist stereotype from if there's not sexist stereotyping happening?

And do you think such sexist stereotyping helps or hinders equality?

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, Dave_c said:

Honestly, I'm astonished that you think this is a credible story. 

well, I'm pretty damned sure you're not a parent, as I doubt you'd ask that question if you were.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, Dave_c said:

Honestly, I'm astonished that you think this is a credible story.

hey, somewhere above megatronic said he played with meccano as a kid.

I'm wondering if you find that to be a credible story? Cos, you know, he could have been playing with dolls.

[Dave_c]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

well, I'm pretty damned sure you're not a parent, as I doubt you'd ask that question if you were.

I am actually, and neither my son or daughter have questioned their sexuality or what jobs they can and can't do because of it.

[Dave_c]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

hey, somewhere above megatronic said he played with meccano as a kid.

I'm wondering if you find that to be a credible story? Cos, you know, he could have been playing with dolls.

Yeah but he said it, his mum didn't tweet it on his behalf.