Oh no - another festival right after the election!

[clarkete]

2 minutes ago, liamium said:

If your constituency is tight between Tories & Lib Dems, fill your boots. Anything to stop the former.

Otherwise, consider that the Lib Dems don't really believe in anything. They may come out as anti-Brexit in this campaign, they may even promise a 2nd referendum knowing they have absolutely nothing to lose by doing so. But if they manage to upset enough results and steal enough seats from both Con & Lab to deny the Tories a workable majority, they will hop back into the coalition bed faster than you can say 'Farron thinks gay sex is a sin'. They stand for nothing. 

You don't seem to know very much about them, or you're just being ahem playful.  Considering one of their reasons for existing was to break the two party system and make space for a third.  To facilitate that, they had to be prepared to embrace coalition politics - it's impossible to be a minor party without that under our first past the post system.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, liamium said:

Otherwise, consider that the Lib Dems don't really believe in anything.

Sorry, but that's bollocks. You might as well claim the same of Labour because Corbyn is different to Miliband.

Liberalism is a fully-formed idea no more or less than socialism is or capitalism is. The issues they each have is with interacting their ideas with the real world that is a mix of all of those ideas.

4 minutes ago, liamium said:

'Farron thinks gay sex is a sin'. 

and Corbyn thinks the EU is a sin.

Oh, but then he thinks it isn't.

But oh, then he thinks it is again.

He can't be a real socialist, eh?

[kalifire]

My fear in all this is that Labour voters will be so uninspired by Corbyn's Labour that they won't bother voting. Farron's an insipid character as well and although the Greens now have a far warmer leadership than Natalie Bennett (who was lovely but incapable), it's going to be a struggle to rally the casual left to vote. That's why addressing Brexit directly and riling up remainers is the only way.

Unfortunately Corbyn sold the left down the river already on that so yet again, he's battling his own past.

Amidst all this, there's a very real prospect that UKIP could now position themselves as the only political party able to put pressure and call the government to account to do Brexit 'properly'. In essence they'd be a lobbying party who exist to see Brexit through to completion. I'm hoping they're too shambolic to organise themselves properly in seven weeks. 

[Havors]

12 minutes ago, mjsell said:

I hate the fact that because people are slating Corbyn you think they will vote Tory. THAT IS NOT YOUR ONLY OPTIONS

As an aside: At this stage I am likely to vote Lib dem, not because they will get into power, or that my vote will impact anything locally for me (I live in a Tory  stronghold) - but because I feel that a vote for them is the one party that helps to get my feelings towards brexit across. They are firm in their stance on this, unlike Labour.

I am however willing to have my opinion changed on this matter.

You are assuming this... I came to the conclusion he may be voting that way after a few comments that made it appear that way. This is one person, I havent said anyone else is going to "vote" tory. 

I am just asking the question, not saying they will. In a lot of cases they may well do, and in some swing seats its as good as voting Tory if you dont vote for the closest opposition. Unfortunately the system we have is the system we have... I would vote for whatever party had the best chance of beating the tories if I was in a swing seat. 

You can vote for the Lib Dems all you want I would also vote for them if they had a chance of winning and stealing a Tory seat. I have actually always been more in favour of Lib Dem and in an Ideal world would have wanted them to lead.

Just trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I have a prefound hatred for Tories and most of their policies, I would like an alternative... even if it turned out to be shit at least we tried an alternative. 

 

[Sasperella]

4 minutes ago, liamium said:

But if they manage to upset enough results and steal enough seats from both Con & Lab to deny the Tories a workable majority, they will hop back into the coalition bed faster than you can say 'Farron thinks gay sex is a sin'. They stand for nothing. 

Aye, a sad fact. I voted lib deb in the first two elections I was old enough to vote in. I'm still not over the coalition or the U-turns and am now a Labour party member. Having said that, I had a friend who used to always vote torie, and in the last year or so has become a member of the lib dems because he thinks they did a great job watering down the tories, whereas now they just have clear run.

Regardless though, in Sheffield you have to vote Labour to keep the tories out...except in Sheffield Hallam, and even then in the last round Clegg only kept his seat because all the tories votes tactically to keep out the very lovely Oliver Coppard - the only seat in Sheffield which I believe has never been Labour.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, Havors said:

You are assuming this... I came to the conclusion he may be voting that way after a few comments that made it appear that way. This is one person, I havent said anyone else is going to "vote" tory. 

based only in the fact that I pointed out some of Corbyn's many faults, faults that you've since agreed with (to some extent, anyway).

For all of the while 'the left' is as mindless as you managed to demonstrate, it's fucked. And that not only saddens me, it makes me REALLY FUCKING ANGRY about how those who claim to be caring and for others are as self-centred as the very worst tory.

Edited April 19, 2017 by eFestivals

[Sasperella]

On a side note, this thread is awesome. Glastonbury and politics, two of my favourite things in one convenient location :-)

[DeanoL]

31 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

But Corbyn WILL lose on June 8th. The reason that people should campaign is to ensure Labour hang on to enough seats so they make the following election a realistic possibility. It isn't people who have "decided" that Corbyn won't win. It's that every single objective bit of evidence out there points to Labour losing at least 30-40 seats and probably more.

That's true. But at this point in the referendum campaign, and the US Presidential election, and the 2015 UK elections, every bit of evidence pointed to the result being a strong success for Remain, a Clinton whitewash and an hung parliament.

And while I'm sure the pollsters are doing a lot of work to improve their models, this snap election will have taken them by surprise too.

Doesn't mean that I think Corbyn will win either. Just that I have less faith in the evidence than some do.

10 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

jezza's lack of political skill had been on display for 30 years before he became leader.

There was a huge line of people pointing it out.

Well yeah. If it hadn't been he wouldn't have got on the ballot in the first place. He was there as a joke, that's the only reason he got put on there. Because the only way a left-of-centre guy gets on there is by accident. And people are reluctant to give him up because the PLP aren't just anti-Corbyn, they're anti-strong-left. They want to make sure Corbyn goes and is replaced by someone who is both more electable personally and more right-wing. The compromise where Corbyn goes and is replaced by someone with his politics but competent is a fantasy that'll never happen. So those of us on the left of the party are stuck with Corbyn just as much as those of on the right are.

But if someone can steer him correctly and get him elected, I'm not sure his competence even matters. The leader of the free world is a reality TV star and Cameron fucked a pig.

[Havors]

20 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

i am. It's not me that's taking 2 years to get up to speed and still failing.

yeah, right ... you're not a cobynista, but you go around calling anyone who dares point out any of his HUGE list of faults a tory ... and you'd never catch a corbynista doing that, right?

it's ok, you don't need to put a huge fuckin' sticker on your forehead to say you're new around here.

You really haven't read my posts properly. The list of his faults is huge... I agree. I dont think he is a very good leader. Did you bother to read any of them bitss? Guess not.... bloody politician!

My point that you have missed, is that stopping the tories is my priority. Whether Corbyn becomes PM or its hung, or theres a coalition, or the Lib Dems win. I don't give a flying fuck. Like I have said previously I would vote for whatever party had the best chance of beating the Tories. 

[clarkete]

4 minutes ago, kalifire said:

Amidst all this, there's a very real prospect that UKIP could now position themselves as the only political party able to put pressure and call the government to account to do Brexit 'properly'. In essence they'd be a lobbying party who exist to see Brexit through to completion. I'm hoping they're too shambolic to organise themselves properly in seven weeks. 

Haven't Banks and Farage already jumped ship to create a new shower of b*st*rds?

[liamium]

4 minutes ago, clarkete said:

You don't seem to know very much about them, or you're just being ahem playful.  Considering one of their reasons for existing was to break the two party system and make space for a third.  To facilitate that, they had to be prepared to embrace coalition politics - it's impossible to be a minor party without that under our first past the post system.

A little cheeky maybe, yes, but I think my point, poorly made, was that something they promise to be wholly opposed to could be up for negotiation if they find themselves in a position of coalition again. 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, kalifire said:

My fear in all this is that Labour voters will be so uninspired by Corbyn's Labour that they won't bother voting.

to be fair, i'd say that's a big risk for all parties.

I saw a post elsewhere last night where someone was claiming his missus as psychic because she'd called loads of recent votes right, and where he was saying she's saying no one would get a majority in June.

I actually think that's possible, because there's so many reasons why people might decide not to bother voting this time - apart from for Libdems, who will want to show themselves against brexit. They don't need a massive swing to displace quite a few tories of tories.

[Havors]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

based only in the fact that I pointed out some of Corbyn's many faults, faults that you've since agreed with (to some extent, anyway).

For all of the while 'the left' is as mindless as you managed to demonstrate, it's fucked. And that not only saddens me, it makes me REALLY FUCKING ANGRY about how those who claim to be caring and for others are as self-centred as the very worst tory.

Well it was actually based on a few comments about the Tories... but hey guess everyone jumps to conclusions. 

I don't think I seen your answer by the way... which way will you vote? 

[liamium]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Sorry, but that's bollocks. You might as well claim the same of Labour because Corbyn is different to Miliband.

Liberalism is a fully-formed idea no more or less than socialism is or capitalism is. The issues they each have is with interacting their ideas with the real world that is a mix of all of those ideas.

and Corbyn thinks the EU is a sin.

Oh, but then he thinks it isn't.

But oh, then he thinks it is again.

He can't be a real socialist, eh?

Again, i'm playing fast and loose and probably unfairly. I'm not really talking about the worthiness of one ideology over another. More a party that makes commitments, inspires a generation and then fucks them over wholesale, hiding behind the paper thin excuse of tempering the worst of Tory excess. Which, in all fairness, they did do. But I don't trust them and I don't trust that they have convictions about anything. 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

because the PLP aren't just anti-Corbyn, they're anti-strong-left.

as a matter of pragmatism, not necessarily of personal ideology.

Unlike Jezza they KNOW that something perceived as 'hard left' is a non-starter. Some of us have been around long enough to have seen it all before.

(whatever the policies, Jezza's history is as that 'hard left' - and that's enough).

[DeanoL]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Sorry, but that's bollocks. You might as well claim the same of Labour because Corbyn is different to Miliband.

Liberalism is a fully-formed idea no more or less than socialism is or capitalism is. The issues they each have is with interacting their ideas with the real world that is a mix of all of those ideas.

and Corbyn thinks the EU is a sin.

Oh, but then he thinks it isn't.

But oh, then he thinks it is again.

He can't be a real socialist, eh?

Being anti-EU and believing we should remain in it isn't contradictory. Plenty of people on here don't think the way Glastonbury tickets are sold is fair, yet that doesn't mean they should stop trying to buy them.

7 minutes ago, kalifire said:

My fear in all this is that Labour voters will be so uninspired by Corbyn's Labour that they won't bother voting. Farron's an insipid character as well and although the Greens now have a far warmer leadership than Natalie Bennett (who was lovely but incapable), it's going to be a struggle to rally the casual left to vote. That's why addressing Brexit directly and riling up remainers is the only way.

With the Tories pushing hard Brexit, and the Lib Dems pushing the softest of soft Brexits (and possible dumping it all together), Labour are actually forced into the very appealing middle-ground where most of the electorate actually sit. "We're doing this, but we're going to do it sensibly, and in the interests of everyone, not just big business".

But they would need to actually capitalise on that. I'm hoping that Labour will be bringing in some campaign strategists. There are plenty of ways to spin Corbyn against the norm in a way that could potentially be very popular but they need to make it happen and Corbyn and the current Labour PR team can't do that. But god knows there must be a whole army of 20-something strategists that want to make Corbyn "their Trump".

[mjsell]

11 minutes ago, liamium said:

They stand for nothing. 

I find their approach to discussions on drug use and potential legalisation refreshing and forward thinking - the only party willing to even broach the topic. Likewise they are the the most progressive party on mental health issues. I would back their stance on lowering the voting age, and their reform of the voting system. And obviously the EU stance is pretty decisive.

Of course there is a lot of their policies I agree with less, or completely disagree with, but your seeming contempt for them is baffling and I would guess comes from a place of complete ignorance.

[Havors]

http://e.infogr.am/stop_the_tories-0?src=embed

[liamium]

Just now, eFestivals said:

as a matter of pragmatism, not necessarily of personal ideology.

Unlike Jezza they KNOW that something perceived as 'hard left' is a non-starter. Some of us have been around long enough to have seen it all before.

(whatever the policies, Jezza's history is as that 'hard left' - and that's enough).

There must be ways to reframe all of this though, ways that make it difficult for those who might apply these labels pejoratively (myself included, sometimes) to discount the ideas. You yourself just came up with a very decent way of potentially selling a tax hike to enable more public spending. 

[DeanoL]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

as a matter of pragmatism, not necessarily of personal ideology.

Unlike Jezza they KNOW that something perceived as 'hard left' is a non-starter. Some of us have been around long enough to have seen it all before.

(whatever the policies, Jezza's history is as that 'hard left' - and that's enough).

And you could well be right. But there's two different arguments there:

1) Corbyn is a shit politician and leader
2) Corbyn's policies are too left wing

You'll find a lot of agreement from all sides of the party on 1) but not on 2). And while the PLP will only countenance solutions that solve both 1) and 2) at the same time, they're then as much to blame for problem 1) persisting as the Corbynistas are. They're holding hostage the chance of having a good leader by refusing to allow for the possibility of another lefty leader. 

Plenty of us would be happy for Corbyn to go, but not at the cost of going back to being led by Blairites.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, Havors said:

Well it was actually based on a few comments about the Tories... but hey guess everyone jumps to conclusions. 

I don't think I seen your answer by the way... which way will you vote? 

I've never voted anything other than Labour - not because I agree with them about everything (they are too right wing for me personally, and were even under Foot) - but because I know it's the only way we don't get the tories.

I can't vote for brexit-Jezza. Not only because he's for brexit, but because his own version of brexit is at least as mad as May's - and because he's shit. I'd be as scared for the country with him in charge as I am with May in charge.

My local Labour MP might get my vote, but it depends what she commits to personally about brexit. I'll have to wait to see what she says.

But i'm lucky. If my constituency isn't labour next time, it'll be Green or LibDem - so i've got freedom to chose without risking tory. If i lived elsewhere it would be more of a dilemma where not voting at all might have come into the mix.

[kalifire]

2 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

There are plenty of ways to spin Corbyn against the norm in a way that could potentially be very popular but they need to make it happen and Corbyn and the current Labour PR team can't do that.

He needs to be bolder than he's being right now, that's for sure. It's not good enough to say things people would expect from Labour. Yes, we know you're for the NHS and against foodbanks and for renationalising the railways and against tax cuts for the wealthiest. Everyone knows that. It's uninspiring. Say something different; revitalising; inspiring. That's what people are clamouring for. Labour have been merely living up to expectations in the most banal, predictable for the last fifteen years.

[Havors]

Just now, eFestivals said:

I've never voted anything other than Labour - not because I agree with them about everything (they are too right wing for me personally, and were even under Foot) - but because I know it's the only way we don't get the tories.

I can't vote for brexit-Jezza. Not only because he's for brexit, but because his own version of brexit is at least as mad as May's - and because he's shit. I'd be as scared for the country with him in charge as I am with May in charge.

My local Labour MP might get my vote, but it depends what she commits to personally about brexit. I'll have to wait to see what she says.

But i'm lucky. If my constituency isn't labour next time, it'll be Green or LibDem - so i've got freedom to chose without risking tory. If i lived elsewhere it would be more of a dilemma where not voting at all might have come into the mix.

It sounds like we have very similar views. I think I just absolutely despise the Tories more than you do that I would gladly take the antichrist Corbyn as PM?

[liamium]

2 minutes ago, mjsell said:

I find their approach to discussions on drug use and potential legalisation refreshing and forward thinking - the only party willing to even broach the topic. Likewise they are the the most progressive party on mental health issues. I would back their stance on lowering the voting age, and their reform of the voting system. And obviously the EU stance is pretty decisive.

Of course there is a lot of their policies I agree with less, or completely disagree with, but your seeming contempt for them is baffling and I would guess comes from a place of complete ignorance.

I was being pretty cute with that, I fully accept. And apologise. There is obviously a lot that's progressive about their platform, but its their commitment to those platforms I doubt, and which of them they would be prepared to sacrifice, and for what. This is not something unique just to that party, I understand. 

[DeanoL]

2 minutes ago, kalifire said:

He needs to be bolder than he's being right now, that's for sure. It's not good enough to say things people would expect from Labour. Yes, we know you're for the NHS and against foodbanks and for renationalising the railways and against tax cuts for the wealthiest. Everyone knows that. It's uninspiring. Say something different; revitalising; inspiring. That's what people are clamouring for. Labour have been merely living up to expectations in the most banal, predictable for the last fifteen years.

Yup. And plenty of people hoped Corbyn would have changed that and he hasn't. Ironically enough, had the PLP known how shit and uninspiring he was going to be they might not have opposed him so much from the start!