Political equality @ Glasto...

[eFestivals]

But as you say, we're talking about children - at 17 or 18, you're not going to have much experience of what "a lot" is. And if the left is constantly telling you "these tuition fee hikes are going to make university too expensive for the poor" then that's going to contribute towards that experience.

yeah, because kids are well known for how closely they follow political affairs, particularly those from the poorest backgrounds.

All you're really doing here is waving a squirrel as a reason for why the better off should keep the inherent privileges of the system we have currently, and how it's all the poor's fault how they're poor and will remain that way.

 

Whether the issue is caused by the remote rhetoric of the left or some more everyday experiences of having no money, we know that kids are losing out and how better equality can be delivered - by lessening the financial disadvantage. We should be looking to deliver it, and not looking for excuses for why we shouldn't.

 

 

And when it comes from authority figures in government it will make a difference. And again, I've seen this. You can sit down and go through how it's actually paid back, and explain rationally that if you don't start earning solid wages, you'll never pay anything back, once you do it's just an affordable proportion of income and you'll still get "that can't be right, it said in the papers these fees will stop me going - if you're right that doesn't make sense".

 

I've spoken to people at university recently who are genuinely concerned about the debt they're in and will be faced with, and seen their faces light up because no-one ever sat down and explained to them how the repayments worked. They had some vague notion that something was in place that meant they weren't entirely fucked but still assumed they'd still have it very tough for a good few years before they'd earn enough to be okay. All they'd seen were marches and the left talking about how the increased fees meant the skies were falling.

 

And yes, the poorer they are, the more of a worry this is for them. But it isn't a worry anyone should have. But the left push the notion that fee increases price out the poor, while the right mostly keep quiet as they're fine with their rich mates having less competition for university places. But no-one actually explains the truth of the system: this is unfair, you'll be paying it back your entire life, but so will most people, and it's totally manageable because it's linked to income.

I don't doubt those things are true, but they're true across all sectors - apart from for the doing OKs for whom debts are not a care because daddy/the trust fund/grannie's inheritance will take care of it.

But even when you've explained it and it's fully understood, you cannot explain away the difference in feeling towards a £40k liability (and it *IS* a liability!) from someone from a wealthy background to someone from a poor background.

The classic liberal view you're espousing that we only need to make the entry criteria equal to achieve equality is proven as utter bollocks in every part of life its been applied to.

 

if that liberal view were true, the likes of racism would never have come to exist.

Edited July 14, 2015 by eFestivals

[frostypaw]

"that can't be right, it said in the papers these fees will stop me going - if you're right that doesn't make sense".

 

I've spoken to people at university recently who are genuinely concerned about the debt they're in and will be faced with, and seen their faces light up because no-one ever sat down and explained to them how the repayments worked. They had some vague notion that something was in place that meant they weren't entirely fucked but still assumed they'd still have it very tough for a good few years before they'd earn enough to be okay. All they'd seen were marches and the left talking about how the increased fees meant the skies were falling.

It was critically important to completely decimate the pro-youth and student Lib Dem vote - how else do you do it?

By misleading everyone - make it a big fun bullying game complete with cassette-boy stylee soundtrack. Get almost the whole country in on it with almost every paper and tv show lampooning them at every opportunity...

Otherwise you could end up with actual three party politics and not being able to force your own way (give or take demonising the scots)

If you wanna see how well it worked just watch some of the post-election montages of stunned faces. People who'd spent their lives working for the people in the type of well-educated liberal student-heavy seats at used to be lib dem strongholds - all shredded.

Combine that with a bunch of photos of someone eating a sandwich awkwardly, plaster it over 90% of the media people are exposed to and you're left with an easy choice if you don't dig deeper into the stories.

So much fire was taken out of the Tories incendary nonsense, but it was as if nothing compared to upset students terrified their futures had been ruined.

SO grumpy.

[Bignews]

They shouldn't be 'stay off the unemployment figures' factories though.

Exactly what I think they've become

[Bignews]

That's exactly what they are now though, job-factories.

Not because of of 'bullshit' degrees (I don't think there really is such thing as a 'bullshit' degree), but because higher education has become commoditised and the institutions are run as businesses, where they aim to take in as many people as possible whilst continuing to slash costs and rake in tidy profits.

I think there are an awful lot of degrees that lead to little or no advantage over not having a degree... This is from first hand seeing friends leaving uni after these kinds of degrees and not being able to get a job or getting a job that they could have got without a degree. I also agree that universities have become a too much of a business and hence they'll take anyone on as long as they're paying their fees, for example a friend got accepted into UWE to study biology... She got an E in A level biology, she dropped out, is it right that she went to uni? Or was she going because she had no other options and wanted the 'uni experience' and wasn't too bothered about the learning

[Winslow Leach]

I think there are an awful lot of degrees that lead to little or no advantage over not having a degree... This is from first hand seeing friends leaving uni after these kinds of degrees and not being able to get a job or getting a job that they could have got without a degree. I also agree that universities have become a too much of a business and hence they'll take anyone on as long as they're paying their fees, for example a friend got accepted into UWE to study biology... She got an E in A level biology, she dropped out, is it right that she went to uni? Or was she going because she had no other options and wanted the 'uni experience' and wasn't too bothered about the learning

 

Well if by the 'uni experience' you mean the opportunity to broaden your cultural, social, intellectual and personal horizons in a space specifically designed to enable you to do so, then I'm not sure how you think that's different from 'the learning.'

[Sawdusty surfer]

20 year old SNP MP giving her maiden speech in the commons. Would love to hear her speak at Glastonbury. 

 (This clip really is worth watching)

 

[Untz]

If people can't do a bit of research into how they're going to pay back their loans before they go to uni, how will they cope when they get to the place and have to do, you know, research?

[FuzzyDunlop]

20 year old SNP MP giving her maiden speech in the commons. Would love to hear her speak at Glastonbury.

(This clip really is worth watching)

https://youtu.be/lZAmhB55_-k

Fantastic speech.

[phil the shrew]

The problem I have with the University fees issue is its personalising the cost of education, so I'm not sure society will benefit as much in the long run.

When I went to Uni I was lucky and got course fees paid and a loan for living costs, so effectively the state funded my education from 5-21. Since graduating I've worked in the public sector and would like to think I've paid back those fees through that work and supporting the wider community

Had I, or my family, had to take out loans for that (even the relative easy loan that is available) and ultimately had to pay the loan back I'm not sure I'd have looked for public service work but a more financially lucrative job that would have let me pay off the loan more quickly

In the long term we really need good young graduates coming through to fill the range of public sector jobs out there. The way Uni funding is going now its much more focused on getting good wages and graduates looking after themselves rather than getting support from the state and paying that back through the work they do.

It's also part of a wider move to transferring state expenditure and turning it into private debt. Which in my opinion stifles national productivity too

[frostypaw]

20 year old SNP MP giving her maiden speech in the commons. Would love to hear her speak at Glastonbury. 

 (This clip really is worth watching)

that was much better than i imagined it could be - quite moving in fact.

more of that please, lots more.

[phil the shrew]

Fantastic speech spoken from the heart and with real knowledge and passion. The bit about being the only 20 year old in the country able to get housing benefit was a great bit of work

[grandadcollective]

20 year old SNP MP giving her maiden speech in the commons. Would love to hear her speak at Glastonbury.

(This clip really is worth watching)

https://youtu.be/lZAmhB55_-k

An exceptional maiden speech.

[stuartbert two hats]

20 year old SNP MP giving her maiden speech in the commons. Would love to hear her speak at Glastonbury.

(This clip really is worth watching)

https://youtu.be/lZAmhB55_-k

I just came here to post the same thing.

[russycarps]

20 year old SNP MP giving her maiden speech in the commons. Would love to hear her speak at Glastonbury.

(This clip really is worth watching)

https://youtu.be/lZAmhB55_-k

Great delivery. I wonder who wrote it?

[stuartbert two hats]

Great delivery. I wonder who wrote it?

Whoever wrote it, they're great words.

[Bignews]

Well if by the 'uni experience' you mean the opportunity to broaden your cultural, social, intellectual and personal horizons in a space specifically designed to enable you to do so, then I'm not sure how you think that's different from 'the learning.'

Well if you listened to what I said, a girl who has gone to study biology after getting an E in it at A level has clearly gone there for the wrong reasons, that is not broadening horizons or creating an opportunity for yourself is it? Would her time be better spent doing something else, probably! But the uni are happy to take her in, milk her for her money, no matter whether it's beneficial to her or not

[eFestivals]

the snp mp nailed it.....

 

before you get too carried away with the nutty nationalists who always find some 'other' to blame for all the problems of the world......

 

Nicola Sturgeon, February 2015: "The SNP have a longstanding position of not voting on matters that purely affect England – such as fox-hunting south of the border, for example – and we stand by that"

 

The only principle of nationalists is to create division with other nations.

[stuartbert two hats]

before you get too carried away with the nutty nationalists who always find some 'other' to blame for all the problems of the world......

Nicola Sturgeon, February 2015: "The SNP have a longstanding position of not voting on matters that purely affect England – such as fox-hunting south of the border, for example – and we stand by that"

The only principle of nationalists is to create division with other nations.

I'm not so sure about that. Did you watch her speech? It wasn't about nationalism. She specifically criticised abstaining. Just because a person may represent a nationalist party, doesn't mean their values are 1 dimensional.

And calling nationalists 'nutty' is about as useful as calling lefties 'loony'. I.E. not at all.

I would like the SNP to rebranded themselves as something like the 'Socialist Nationalist Party' and to stand in England, but unless they do, they have to be conscious of the 'the West Lothian question' and not getting too involved in English politics.

That speech was nothing to do with nationalism and everything to do with socialism.

[CaledonianGonzo]

SNP MP Tommy Sheppard's maiden speech in the House from a few weeks back is also well worth watching.

Just a pity that there are scarcely any other MPs there from the other less nutty parties to hear them.

Edit: It's here:

Edited July 15, 2015 by CaledonianGonzo

[eFestivals]

I'm not so sure about that. Did you watch her speech? It wasn't about nationalism. She specifically criticised abstaining. Just because a person may represent a nationalist party, doesn't mean their values are 1 dimensional.

 

she's a nationalist. She speaks as much sense as all other nationalists. You know, like Farage.

 

And calling nationalists 'nutty' is about as useful as calling lefties 'loony'. I.E. not at all.

 

I was giving a summary.

I can give you the full breakdown, just go read the indie thread in the discussions section, starting on page one.

And do take the time to notice how those nationalists have spent the last 6 months arguing against everything they said prior to Sept 18th.

 

I would like the SNP to rebranded themselves as something like the 'Socialist Nationalist Party' and to stand in England

perhaps National Socialist Party would be more fitting?

That speech was nothing to do with nationalism and everything to do with socialism.

from a member of a party that is against corporate welfare cuts.

[jackarmy]

I'm not so sure about that. Did you watch her speech? It wasn't about nationalism. She specifically criticised abstaining. Just because a person may represent a nationalist party, doesn't mean their values are 1 dimensional.

And calling nationalists 'nutty' is about as useful as calling lefties 'loony'. I.E. not at all.

I would like the SNP to rebranded themselves as something like the 'Socialist Nationalist Party' and to stand in England, but unless they do, they have to be conscious of the 'the West Lothian question' and not getting too involved in English politics.

That speech was nothing to do with nationalism and everything to do with socialism.

 

Not a bad idea, but that name...

[CaledonianGonzo]

Small point - it's Scottish National Party, not Scottish Nationalist Party.

[eFestivals]

Small point - it's Scottish National Party, not Scottish Nationalist Party.

small point: they describe themselves as "nationalists" in their own constitution.

I'm very bored at seeing the line of fantasy you've just trotted out. I've seen it well over 10,000 times now.

[eFestivals]

PS: they also do not have the welfare of the people of Scotland as their primary policy.

[CaledonianGonzo]

Almost as many times as I've seen that National Socialist "joke", then.

But my point stands. Far from being a 'line of fantasy', that is still the party's name.