The N Word

[simonsimondock]

Thank you for stating that.

It's a good question, and it is making me (re)think over things.

But ultimately, I still say there's much greater control via public acceptability (or not) than there is via the confusion of ambiguity.

And - anecdotally - I've seen casual use of racist language become more prominent again in more-recent years. The expectation of not being challenged for it is back.

More prominent in recent years?! That's interesting. Because I've seen the exact opposite in my generation. Which for me is the most important thing.

[eFestivals]

More prominent in recent years?! That's interesting. Because I've seen the exact opposite in my generation. Which for me is the most important thing.

I made a point of including the 'anecdotally' in there, as part of it might be due to living in a different place - tho even within that place (I've been here 12 years now) I've seemingly seen a rise in open use of racist language (by racists, I mean). It's certainly stuff I'd have seen turned on by everyone present in the (at least) ten years prior to that.

Racism has shrunk hugely over my lifetime, but the issue has yet to go away. Giving the racists permission to be openly racist again is not traffic in only one direction.

[Mr.Tease]

More prominent in recent years?! That's interesting. Because I've seen the exact opposite in my generation. Which for me is the most important thing.

I'd say it's increased for me, coming from an arab background. I think people are a bit better at hiding their racism these days, where as in the past there was a shamelessness about it.

[simonsimondock]

I made a point of including the 'anecdotally' in there, as part of it might be due to living in a different place - tho even within that place (I've been here 12 years now) I've seemingly seen a rise in open use of racist language (by racists, I mean). It's certainly stuff I'd have seen turned on by everyone present in the (at least) ten years prior to that.

Racism has shrunk hugely over my lifetime, but the issue has yet to go away. Giving the racists permission to be openly racist again is not traffic in only one direction.

Hmm... interesting. And fair cop with your first point.

I don't quite follow your last sentence there. Forgive me. But who's giving racists permission to be openly racist? I'm certainly not standing for that anyway.

[simonsimondock]

I'd say it's increased for me, coming from an arab background. I think people are a bit better at hiding their racism these days, where as in the past there was a shamelessness about it.

Interesting again. But how do you know people are better at hiding it? Maybe they're actually just not racist? That's what I've found. Again, I'm only 26 but suffered big time when I was younger (mainly in school and playing football at uni, only when we played the local north Welsh sides however, not other actual unis) and now I don't see it at all really.

[alframsey]

im gonna go for nigel

all day nigel

nigel in paris

lovely, good old nigel

I think I'll jump on your bandwagon good sir!

[Winslow Leach]

im gonna go for nigel

all day nigel

nigel in paris

lovely, good old nigel

[Amy Lawn]

I'm going for ninja

Fuck you and your corparation, ya'll ninjas can't control me!
Ya'll throwing contracts at me, you know ninjas can't read.

[salvador wali]

[The 38 year old virgin]

Knickers with attitude sounds better than ninjas with attitude

[Tuna]

... and if you don't know, now you know, knickers.

[Ommadawn]

Tbh the thought of standing there and having somebody shout it along with a constant barrage of expletives, is enough for me to look elsewhere

This

[Amy Lawn]

I remember where I heard it!

[HGavin]

Did we we decide these artists have used it in song and therefore when played in a concert environment we have all the right to sing along?

Good. Cause I'll be belting New Slaves out without refrain.

'Cause its a song!

If you're offended or think I'm using it as an opportunity to use profanity to show off how cool I am or something, that's your deal. Admittedly I haven't been in a Kanye West moshpit yet, but I'm assuming I would be enjoying the music, and singing along without abandon.

Edited March 20, 2015 by HGavin

[guypjfreak]

Well, there is. A bunch of white guys using the word 'nigger', for example.

It's all very well having the idea that blacks should reclaim the word and make it theirs, but that's not the start and end of it. It puts the word back into circulation, back into use, and strengthens its meaning, and the racists finally find something to like black people for.

It's so very poorly thought out, and anti-productive.

well said old son

[whateverman]

All of us are opposed to racism - I think that's clear.

You say that the use of racist language has increased - I have witnessed the opposite happen. It's much harder to speak out in overt racist terms than it ever has been. Of course racists are creative - 'muslim, pickey, asylum-seeker', are all safer targets for abuse and vitriol these days.

I haven't heard somebody in the wild use the word 'nigger' as a racial slur for years.

Subverting the word has been a clever tactic for us in the past - in fact I'd say it's been a necessary survival tool. It's taken the edge off of a potentially harmful, humiliating weapon, and turned it into something more tame, even playful at times.

I don't think that anybody confuses nigger for nigga, or is unaware that it's use and meaning change from one community to another. Even kids get that.

Of course many of the complications from this arise from commercialisation - what happens when a coda developed to help your fellow and yourself overcome a very specific stigma using quite radical means, becomes just another product vying for attention on a supermarket shelf? I doubt whether street kids and radicals in the seventies talikng about 'Nigga you crazy!' ever thought that middle class white kids would ever have to consider the etiquette of the phrase!

It's not an easy minefield to maneuver - but you know what? Fuck that! That word basically plagued my childhood, and (until I was old enough/ strong enough to know better) succeeded in making me feel like an outsider to a large extent. If it's now making a few people feel uncomfortable during song recitals because it's been reclaimed and subverted - then that's too bad.

But I'm not down for racist ideas and notions spreading - and of course I am not 100% happy about it's rise as a casual part of rap. It's one thing to say 'Nigga you crazy!', and another to say 'I kill niggas on a daily'. I do think it's use can be negative. I can sympathise with those who don't like it, for sure. But it's a complex issue - one that needs a sophisticated (and in fact sensitive) response.

This debate seems healthy and respectful to me. Which, considering the subject matter, is a minor miracle, lol.

[FloorFiller]

when i went to see Kanye at Wireless last year i sang/rapped along to it all, including that word. there were moments when i thought 'shit, is this not okay?' but honestly - what's more ridiculous? singing/rapping along to the words that this artist has chosen to use in his art, or going silent / replacing the word with something else each time? baring in mind, you can replace it with 'knickers' or whatever all you want; people around you are still gonna think you're saying the word. there was a group of black guys stood next to me who i'd shared a joint with earlier and they didn't seem to give a shit, but if somebody had told me it wasn't okay i wouldn't have thought twice about stopping.

i do agree about there being a thing with white people on saying these taboo words louder/more aggressively - that's kind of weird. like they've been wanting to say it all this time and now finally, they can, so they make a big point of it

Edited March 20, 2015 by FloorFiller

[greenArmy12]

Bigger thought this was another Nick cave thread

[Winslow Leach]

Bigger thought this was another Nick cave thread

THERE IS ONLY ONE NICK CAVE THREAD.

[dentalplan]

when i went to see Kanye at Wireless last year i sang/rapped along to it all, including that word. there were moments when i thought 'shit, is this not okay?' but honestly - what's more ridiculous? singing/rapping along to the words that this artist has chosen to use in his art, or going silent / replacing the word with something else each time? baring in mind, you can replace it with 'knickers' or whatever all you want; people around you are still gonna think you're saying the word. there was a group of black guys stood next to me who i'd shared a joint with earlier and they didn't seem to give a shit, but if somebody had told me it wasn't okay i wouldn't have thought twice about stopping.

i do agree about there being a thing with white people on saying these taboo words louder/more aggressively - that's kind of weird. like they've been wanting to say it all this time and now finally, they can, so they make a big point of it

Yeah I completely agree with all that. If people start shouting out the most creative words they can instead of 'nigger' I'll be moving well away from them.

I've been dipping in on KanyeToThe for a few weeks now because I'm excited about this new album and - after All Day - this thing about song lyrics has obviously come up a few times and many people (I'm assuming black if they're giving an opinion in such a way) have said they don't care if it's used in a song's context and also Kanye doesn't care if it's used in context. Obviously I'm not naive enough to think that some rappers and rap fans are the deciding voice on this but it just seems that black people care less about the word than white people do. In fact this was just posted recently -

[Spindles]

I'm a child of the 70's, so it is a word I only associate with vile, spitting hatred. When it began to be used in hiphop I was never able to be comfortable with that and I know alot of people of all creeds of a similar age with a similar distaste for it's use in music.

I don't pretend that my attitude to the word is right or wrong mind. I'm a product of my environment as much as those using it are theirs, so they doubtless have their reasons to feel comfortable with it as much as I find it repulsive.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Spindles

[eFestivals]

But who's giving racists permission to be openly racist? I'm certainly not standing for that anyway.

If you as a black man can claim a right to use a particular word in public spaces, then so can others - and they do.

I fully accept that it'll be mostly the stupid who will do that, but they DO do that. It makes the use of racist language publicly acceptable again.

As someone who lived thru the time that helped to stamp it out in common use, that saddens me. I'd much rather that the racists are exposed by their own use of language rather than them being able to hide behind ambiguity.

[eFestivals]

I don't think that anybody confuses nigger for nigga, or is unaware that it's use and meaning change from one community to another. Even kids get that.

Most kids do, yes.

But not all. The racists are often the most stupid of people. They take one use as a statement that all use is acceptable.

[stuartbert two hats]

The racists are often the most stupid of people.

Good point. Always worth remembering.

[Ommadawn]

I'm a child of the 70's, so it is a word I only associate with vile, spitting hatred. When it began to be used in hiphop I was never able to be comfortable with that and I know alot of people of all creeds of a similar age with a similar distaste for it's use in music.

I don't pretend that my attitude to the word is right or wrong mind. I'm a product of my environment as much as those using it are theirs, so they doubtless have their reasons to feel comfortable with it as much as I find it repulsive.

This