The N Word

[simonsimondock]

no it's not, it's (if you like) the prompt-er of 'a vision'.

If I say tits, what pops into your mind? Might it be an image of a breast in one way or another?

The association is always there.

You're welcome to think I'm wrong. I'll keep on believing that I think it does nothing positive but the opposite.

I suggest you do a bit of reading about the power of words. They're more than the letters which make up the word.

First of all, I suggest you lose the condescending tone; it's not very nice. I'm very well versed in words already, mate. But essentially I still think you're wrong. Words are made up of letters which are just sounds that come from our mouths. We have very powerful brains to interpret those sounds in whichever way we see fit.

So, what's wrong with associations? Good or bad. When you say tits. I think of tits. And it makes me feel good.

When I hear a word that has racist associations I think about why someone might have said it. If it's racist I will respond badly. But if not, why does it matter?

Ultimately, using the word does nothing positive at all. The racist association is *always* heard no matter what is meant by the use; it's a word with too much past-power, where the association will never be lost.

Sorry, but who are you to say it "using the word does nothing positive at all"? Please, explain Mr eFestivals.

I think it's a good thing that the association will never be fully lost. It gives us a constant reminder how fucked up things used to be. And now it's getting better.

[simonsimondock]

https://youtu.be/z6NRTSc_8bk

Also Mr eFestivals, you sound like Ben Ferguson here (as above); and I would suggest that's not the best route to take.

[Tigerdragon]

Saussure would disagree with you.

Do people still take Saussure seriously?

Anyway, this makes for mixed feelings in me. On the one hand, the word still comes with a lot of history. While it is kept around it means that, when it is used to cause offense by a white person, that person will almost universally be scorned - unless they happen to be at a national front meet.

If the word was just let die, and went extinct, it would be naive to think white people would not find a new word with which to be racist with. Think about the horrible words like 'raghead' etc etc etc. This kind of language is so much more socially acceptable, and makes racism that much more socially acceptable, because the word doesn't have the same weight of history. It's flippant, off-hand, and that's the danger.

So if there are going to be offensive, racist words, better for black people to have reclaimed and kept alive the n word, with all its history, so that when its used, racism seems the serious thing it is and is scorned heavily.

Also, I can't help but think that the awkwardness and powerlessness it can cause white people is a good thing (like in the Samuel L Jackson video). Its a taste of what it means to be powerless, which I think was part of the point beyond reclaiming it, I think.

Whether featuring it heavily in a song helps that is another matter... Perhaps the point is that intelligently reclaiming it is different from unthinkingly using it.

[eFestivals]

Saussure would disagree with you.

right, so you want me to take the view that "things have moved on", but use someone who's been dead for a 100 years to justify that.

[eFestivals]

Can't a word lose its power though? As it arguably has done.

we're sat here discussing whether or not it can be used without implying or suggesting anything racist.

The very fact of the association we're discussing proves that it hasn't.

As you alluded to anyway, there are much bigger racial fish to fry than the act of singing along to songs which don't use the word in a derogatory way.

The use of racist language is and always will be one of the big fish around racism.

[Mouseboy11]

right, so you want me to take the view that "things have moved on", but use someone who's been dead for a 100 years to justify that.

I have no view on the subject either way, wouldn't consider myself educated enough on it to give a proper opinion. More of a passing comment

[eFestivals]

First of all, I suggest you lose the condescending tone; it's not very nice.

How were my words any of that?

According to you that I was replying back to, they're just words.

Your protest has just disproven your very own point.

[Winslow Leach]

Do people still take Saussure seriously?

Anyway, this makes for mixed feelings in me. On the one hand, the word still comes with a lot of history. While it is kept around it means that, when it is used to cause offense by a white person, that person will almost universally be scorned - unless they happen to be at a national front meet.

If the word was just let die, and went extinct, it would be naive to think white people would not find a new word with which to be racist with. Think about the horrible words like 'raghead' etc etc etc. This kind of language is so much more socially acceptable, and makes racism that much more socially acceptable, because the word doesn't have the same weight of history. It's flippant, off-hand, and that's the danger.

So if there are going to be offensive, racist words, better for black people to have reclaimed and kept alive the n word, with all its history, so that when its used, racism seems the serious thing it is and is scorned heavily.

Also, I can't help but think that the awkwardness and powerlessness it can cause white people is a good thing (like in the Samuel L Jackson video). Its a taste of what it means to be powerless, which I think was part of the point beyond reclaiming it, I think.

Whether featuring it heavily in a song helps that is another matter... Perhaps the point is that intelligently reclaiming it is different from unthinkingly using it.

Exactly. The word isn't supposed to have lost its associations. Black culture (for want of a less crude definition) shouldn't have to file itself down in order to fit within white people's parameters of acceptability. It's white attitudes that have to change.

[simonsimondock]

How were my words any of that?

According to you that I was replying back to, they're just words.

Your protest has just disproven your very own point.

Are you actually reading this? It's embarrassing. It's not about proving or disproving. And just in case you wanted me to prove your distasteful tone, I was referring to the below. In any case, actual words are different to the way those words are written. Just be nice, that's all I ask.

I suggest you do a bit of reading about the power of words.

Also, did you watch the video I posted? What do you think?

[eFestivals]

Are you actually reading this? It's embarrassing. It's not about proving or disproving. And just in case you wanted me to prove your distasteful tone, I was referring to the below. In any case, actual words are different to the way those words are written. Just be nice, that's all I ask.

words that were written with only good intentions towards someone who had just said something about 'nigger' being "only words".

And then you've clearly taken huge offence to my own "just words" (wrongly, but we'll skip that part), very much showing the huge power that words have to cause offence.

Proving words to be a whole lot more than "just words".

Edited March 20, 2015 by eFestivals

[simonsimondock]

words that were written with only good intentions towards someone who had just said something about 'nigger' being "only words".

And then you've clearly taken huge offence to my own "just words" (wrongly, but we'll skip that part), very much showing the huge power that words have to cause offence.

Proving words to be a whole lot more than "just words".

Not just your words mate. Your tone. That was the only issue. Context and tone. We've already been through this.

Would you care to answer some of my questions now please?

[Vanderlyle]

Just replace the N word with 'fellow' when you're singing

One of the best sketches ever...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beV0N7lItuQ

[eFestivals]

Not just your words mate. Your tone. That was the only issue. Context and tone. We've already been through this.

Tone, in written words? It's all in your head.

If you don't understand the power of words - which your own words suggested - you really ought to. Which is why I suggested what I did.

Everything else is your invention.

[scrippit]

This thread could spiral into decline rapidly!

Haha! Case proven.

[simonsimondock]

Tone, in written words? It's all in your head.

If you don't understand the power of words - which your own words suggested - you really ought to. Which is why I suggested what I did.

Everything else is your invention.

Oh god, you're really one aren't you.

I apologise for saying you came across as condescending. But you still are by the way.

Stop suggesting I 'don't understand the power of words' please. You have no idea who I am. I've had racist slurs my whole life, so I understand this power you talk of, mate.

So, you still digress. Care to answer questions yet? This is such hard work.

[topmarksbri]

I think we can all agree it's a difficult issue.

[Justiceforcedave]

I read the first page.....then read the last one and was unsurprised.

[Harry3]

Oh god, you're really one aren't you.

I apologise for saying you came across as condescending. But you still are by the way.

Stop suggesting I 'don't understand the power of words' please. You have no idea who I am. I've had racist slurs my whole life, so I understand this power you talk of, mate.

So, you still digress. Care to answer questions yet? This is such hard work.

Yeah its not really worth arguing with him.

[eFestivals]

Stop suggesting I 'don't understand the power of words' please.

I took that from your own words:-

A word is just a word.

You have no idea who I am. I've had racist slurs my whole life, so I understand this power you talk of, mate.

I'm very sorry about that, but it's not my fault.

The understanding isn't yours alone, tho.

So, you still digress. Care to answer questions yet? This is such hard work.

Also, did you watch the video I posted? What do you think?

No, I didn't. I'm very well versed in these issues, for well over 30 years. I know the arguments.

I'm aware some people hold a different view to me; nothing of that means I have to take on their view or act it out.

I don't see how the open use of racist language within society lessens the amount of racism or racist language within society. I've yet to see any argument that is able to make that idea stand up.

[simonsimondock]

I took that from your own words:-

I'm very sorry about that, but it's not my fault.

The understanding isn't yours alone, tho.

No, I didn't. I'm very well versed in these issues, for well over 30 years. I know the arguments.

I'm aware some people hold a different view to me; nothing of that means I have to take on their view or act it out.

I don't see how the open use of racist language within society lessens the amount of racism or racist language within society. I've yet to see any argument that is able to make that idea stand up.

Well, I'm sorry if this offends you but I've come to the conclusion that you're an idiot. Watch that video and then get back to me.

You almost aren't entitled to an (informed) opinion on this because you haven't suffered any form of racism. Would I be right in saying that?

Also, would you consider the word 'holocaust' offensive?

[simonsimondock]

You're also completely missing the point about context. I presume you know what that word means? Context is important. You seem so well versed in pretty much everything. Congratulations on that by the way.

[Vanderlyle]

Tone, in written words? It's all in your head.

If you don't understand the power of words - which your own words suggested - you really ought to. Which is why I suggested what I did.

Everything else is your invention.

I think you're wrong on two fronts to be honest.

1) You're wrong to suggest that "nigger" is now fixed forever in its meaning. All words evolve over time, just as "nigger" grew from an inoffensive term into one of the most offensive language. And so, thankfully, there is always the possibility of it moving back.

2) If anybody is going to 'lead the way' in how to interpret the word, it has to be the victims of the slur - i.e. black people. I really don't think you should be criticising them for trying to do this. Whether, as a matter of fact, the majority of black people do want this is, or whether Kanye is in the minority, is a separate, factual question.

[eFestivals]

Well, I'm sorry if this offends you but I've come to the conclusion that you're an idiot. Watch that video and then get back to me.

You almost aren't entitled to an (informed) opinion on this because you haven't suffered any form of racism. Would I be right in saying that?

As you well know (at least i hope you do), a large proportion of the black population shares my view, which has you calling them all the same things as you're calling me. I suspect you wouldn't put it in that way to them, but there you go.

To my eternal shame, yes I'm lucky enough to have been born white, so I get everything which comes with it. One of the black members of my family you probably watch on TV, BTW.

Now please. I accept your right to your view, and I understand completely how you arrive at it. If I were in your position, who knows, perhaps that the conclusion I'd reach too. But I'm not.

I can only look at things from where I am, and try to reach a considered conclusion. My conclusion is different to yours, but there is nothing to criticise it for. It does not condone racism, and is anti-racism. It disagrees only on method.

The holocaust was not the word of oppression, btw. It's a word used as a label post-event, and not the same.

[eFestivals]

You're also completely missing the point about context.

There is speaker's context, and then there is the context that rings in a person's head. The 2nd is outside of the control of the first.

When a 10 year old asks what the word means he's just heard in a song, what explanation do you think is likely to get given?

[LondonTom]

And it's not just black people who have done this - Queer used to mean queer, now it's a mark of Queer Pride. Dyke has been reclaimed to an extent as well.

Have they? Whenever I've seen Queer or Dyke used its always been used in a horrible homophobic way....

Can't a word lose its power though? As it arguably has done.

It can/ the meaning of word can change to, but that hasn't happened with the N word really has it? In reality what we have now is two definitions depending on the colour of your skin by some...I think most take it as a racist word?

Edited March 20, 2015 by LondonTom