This morning...

[zahidf]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Was groping women why they voted for him, or did they vote for him for reasons different to that?

What's thick as pig shit is an opinion that decides their thinking for them on a false basis.

 

its because of the groping, banning muslims and building a wall.

 

Good old fashioned get rid of the darkies and who cares about women?

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Polls are impossible to trust based on the huge amount of variables involved. Where were the polls done? Which neighbourhoods, what time of day, the ethnicity of the area, were the people lying, did the people who answered 'I don't want to say' really just use that as an answer for Trump. They're notoriously difficult to trust.

In a convo where stupidity crops up a lot, someone dismisses the scientific basis of polling.

Much the same thing happened with the USA polls as happened with the Brexit polls - that the opinions of those who don't normally vote were removed from the polls, but then those people went out and voted anyway.

Polls will only ever be as good as the modelling they use, but what the voters might do can change each time they vote - so they'll always be the chance of a variance with what polls report.

 

9 hours ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

It's terribly unfair to label all of Trumps supporters as simply dumb or stupid - and doing so perpetuates the polarization. 

Nicely put.

The people who want to regard themselves as the smart ones need to prove they're smarter, not just claim it (perhaps wrongly) for themselves.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

In a convo where stupidity crops up a lot, someone dismisses the scientific basis of polling.

Much the same thing happened with the USA polls as happened with the Brexit polls - that the opinions of those who don't normally vote were removed from the polls, but then those people went out and voted anyway.

Polls will only ever be as good as the modelling they use, but what the voters might do can change each time they vote - so they'll always be the chance of a variance with what polls report.

Exactly! But I wasn't supporting the polls...

I was just explaining their inaccuracy for someone else  

[arcade fireman]

17 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

But then you have to ask which is worse. Being non-PC/being a jerk or knowingly being corrupt/ready for war. There's your false equivalence.

 

I could be wrong here about you, but most people who dismiss Trump's actions as being "non-PC/being a jerk" haven't had to deal with any meaningful form of discrimination in their own lives. At a push you could maybe describe most of Nigel Farage's antics in those terms maybe. 

But Trump has been outwardly racist. He has publicly advocated discriminating entry to America based on their religion (which still according to UN definitions counts as racism, before you start that argument). We have multiple accounts from women saying he groped them - I know this isn't proof (when can we ever get proof in these cases) but given they are paired with statements he's made off guard I know who I would believe. He has referred to a whole bunch of immigrants from another country as "rapists". He is endorsed by the leaders of the KKK. Have you seen which foreign leaders have been quickest to send their warm congratulations to Trump? The likes of Putin, el-Sisi, Duterte. The idea that Trump will be a stabilising force for world peace is just fantasy. 

Do you think Trump is an honest man? When you describe Hillary as corrupt (and be clear, I agree she's hardly a saint) do you seriously think Trump can't be described in those same terms? The guy is fantastically wealthy and yet hasn't paid income taxes for decades - and claims he will help the working class. This guy isn't corrupt? 

Some people will be happy to stand by and say or do nothing whilst they see discrimination, racism, sexism, bigotry. They'll throw their hands up and say "they're all as bad as each other". I would rather not be one of those people. 

 

Edited November 10, 2016 by arcade fireman

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

its because of the groping, banning muslims and building a wall.

 

Good old fashioned get rid of the darkies and who cares about women?

Or maybe it was making american great again, about creating jobs, and opportunities, and increasing investments in infrastructure, or not sending Americans to fight wars they shouldn't?

Cos those things were also part of Trump's message, but not Clinton's.

And on the other side was the representation of the system they felt had let them down, who'd bombed EIGHT different countries, and promised more of the same system which many people felt was letting them down.

I saw a young Latino in a southern state interviewed on TV, who detested Trump for some of what he'd said of Latino's, and yet implied (tho didn't say outright) that she'd vote for Trump because he offered the best hope for improvement of her community via the jobs he promised. I think it was 36% of those Latino's who voted for that 'racist'.

You're calling others stupid while reducing a complex issue to the most basic - and calling it wrong. So who's the real stupid...?

If those who think themselves smart can't beat stupid, they're not really very smart.

[zahidf]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

In a convo where stupidity crops up a lot, someone dismisses the scientific basis of polling.

Much the same thing happened with the USA polls as happened with the Brexit polls - that the opinions of those who don't normally vote were removed from the polls, but then those people went out and voted anyway.

Polls will only ever be as good as the modelling they use, but what the voters might do can change each time they vote - so they'll always be the chance of a variance with what polls report.

 

Nicely put.

The people who want to regard themselves as the smart ones need to prove they're smarter, not just claim it (perhaps wrongly) for themselves.

If someone votes a racist candidate, the assumption will be that person is either or a racist or (generously) they dont care if someone is racist because they dont care about racism.

 

You cant vote the same way as the KKK and BNP and then whine about being accused of probably being a racist

[eFestivals]

5 hours ago, tevaburger said:

pretty shocking night, early morning and day here in the USA being dealt with through a constant dose of alcohol. I must say I don't know of many Trump voters in my parts...probably 'secretly' out there though...

kudos to Glasto 2017 'special guest' Lady Gaga who was out protesting at Trump Tower early Wednesday morning.

top 3 reads of the day in case you're interested and didn't come across these...

1) Roger Cohen (NY Times) http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/opinion/president-donald-trump.html

2) David Remnick "An American Tragedy" http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/an-american-tragedy-donald-trump

3) Garrison Keilor "Trump Supporters Will Not Like What Happens Next" in the Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trump-voters-will-not-like-what-happens-next/2016/11/09/e346ffc2-a67f-11e6-8fc0-7be8f848c492_story.html

9) and....um...  very quick Pablo Honey album review from Rolling Stone - http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/pablo-honey-19931223

 

[zahidf]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Or maybe it was making american great again, about creating jobs, and opportunities, and increasing investments in infrastructure, or not sending Americans to fight wars they shouldn't?

Cos those things were also part of Trump's message, but not Clinton's.

And on the other side was the representation of the system they felt had let them down, who'd bombed EIGHT different countries, and promised more of the same system which many people felt was letting them down.

I saw a young Latino in a southern state interviewed on TV, who detested Trump for some of what he'd said of Latino's, and yet implied (tho didn't say outright) that she'd vote for Trump because he offered the best hope for improvement of her community via the jobs he promised. I think it was 36% of those Latino's who voted for that 'racist'.

You're calling others stupid while reducing a complex issue to the most basic - and calling it wrong. So who's the real stupid...?

If those who think themselves smart can't beat stupid, they're not really very smart.

unemployment is at its lowest levels for years. And if you think the GOP care about infastructure and not going to war, then you know nothing about recent history.

 

Dont get me wrong, theyve been conned. But its an obvious con

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, zahidf said:

If someone votes a racist candidate, the assumption will be that person is either or a racist or (generously) they dont care if someone is racist because they dont care about racism.

 

You cant vote the same way as the KKK and BNP and then whine about being accused of probably being a racist

Your reductionism of everything to racism as as stupid as anything Trump said.

And as Clinton (or her campaign) used that line too, it makes both sides equally stupid to someone who is engaging their brain, which makes Trump someone who can be voted for as much as the also-stupid Clinton.

It's YOUR line of argument that set-up the Trump victory, by being as stupid as Trump.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

1 minute ago, arcade fireman said:

 

I could be wrong here about you, but most people who dismiss Trump's actions as being "non-PC/being a jerk" haven't had to deal with any meaningful form of discrimination in their own lives. At a push you could maybe describe most of Nigel Farage's antics in those terms maybe. 

But Trump has been outwardly racist. He has publicly advocated discriminating entry to America based on their religion (which still according to UN definitions counts as racism, before you start that argument). We have multiple accounts from women saying he groped them - I know this isn't proof (when can we ever get proof in these cases) but given they are paired with statements he's made off guard I know who I would believe. He has referred to a whole bunch of immigrants from another country as "rapists". He is endorsed by the leaders of the KKK. Have you seen which foreign leaders have been quickest to send their warm congratulations to Trump? The likes of Putin, el-Sisi, Duterte. The idea that Trump will be a stabilising force for world peace is just fantasy. 

Do you think Trump is an honest man? When you describe Hillary as corrupt (and be clear, I agree she's hardly a saint) do you seriously think Trump can't be described in those same terms? The guy is fantastically wealthy and yet hasn't paid income taxes for decades - and claims he will help the working class. This guy isn't corrupt? 

Some people will be happy to stand by and say or do nothing whilst they see discrimination, racism, sexism, bigotry. They'll throw their hands up and say "they're all as bad as each other". I would rather not be one of those people. 

 

1. With such sweeping, general statements, is it any wonder people voted the way they did? You make so many assumptions about other people. You know nothing about them, their struggles, their lives, their discrimination or whatever. You think you do, and that's where the trouble sets in.

2. Islam is not a race. It's an ideology. One that if you study the Koran and countries that follow Sharia Law, quite factually and openly supports hatred of women and homosexuals.

3. Yes I agree with you about the 'rapists' part. But like I said, he's not a politician, he's not very PC and I would expect him to be more careful in the future. His point was against illegal immigration but he was wrong to label a whole country as rapists, but the sentiment was that he wanted to stop illegal immigration. Which is fair enough, isn't it? It's illegal after all and that's how we stay a democracy - by following the rules.

4. Yes, these people have congratulated him first, but why? Maybe because going to war is the least favourable choice of Trump's options. He has said he wants to talk to Putin, not battle him. As America's power in the world dwindles, they have to accept the fact they're not going to have supremacy over other countries now and can't just go around fighting everyone. Surely, not going to war or battling another Cold War, is more like peace than anything Hilary and the Drone Happy Democrats would have done?

5. The tax issue is bad too, but that isn't corruption. It's being clever with loopholes and the like, but not corruption. It's perfectly legal and plenty of companies do it. He said he would sew up the holes, so let's see if he does it. Yes, he is wealthy. But I don't see why that makes someone corrupt.

6. You can throw these labels around all you like, but just because you say them, doesn't make them true. He's un-PC sure, but just because you act so offended and flabbergasted doesn't make you right. He hires plenty of women, plenty of Mexicans, plenty of black people, plenty of homosexuals. He wants to make money at the end of the day and live a good life - like most people in the world. You can't do that if you don't hire women, blacks, homosexuals just because they're women, blacks, homosexuals, etc. He's just not a bigot because you don't like his language.
 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, zahidf said:

unemployment is at its lowest levels for years.

Like it is in the UK, where 'employment' is often shit jobs and zero hour contracts. 

 

4 minutes ago, zahidf said:

And if you think the GOP care about infastructure and not going to war, then you know nothing about recent history.

So you can dismiss as worthless and not-happening the massive part of what Trump actually said and campaigned on, but the racist parts are full-on going-to-come-true...?

You might be right of course (tho the facts currently point in the other direction), but that doesn't alter the fact that - just as you're doing - others are also able to pick and choose the parts they want to believe and ignore the parts they want to dismiss.

 

4 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Dont get me wrong, theyve been conned. But its an obvious con

And Clinton wouldn't have also been a con...?

I'm bored of those who think themselves smart proving they're as thick as they label Trump supporters.

[zahidf]

20 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Your reductionism of everything to racism as as stupid as anything Trump said.

And as Clinton (or her campaign) used that line too, it makes both sides equally stupid to someone who is engaging their brain, which makes Trump someone who can be voted for as much as the also-stupid Clinton.

It's YOUR line of argument that set-up the Trump victory, by being as stupid as Trump.

Sooo... Ignore his racism and focus on their 'economic anxiety'?

[eFestivals]

Just now, zahidf said:

Sooo... Ignore his racism and focus on their 'economic anxiety'?

I'm simply pointing out that that's what people DID DO!!!

Do you think 36% of Latino's voted for Trump's racism against themselves?

Or might they have been voting for him in support of something else?

 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

45 minutes ago, zahidf said:

its because of the groping, banning muslims and building a wall.

 

Good old fashioned get rid of the darkies and who cares about women?

Come on, you can't compact 18 months of campaigning in to that sentence. You have to be more analytical than that.

Also? What's wrong with walls? Glastonbury has a huge one and it helps protect the festival and keep us all safe from ticket dodgers and thieves

[Gnomicide]

26 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Or maybe it was making american great again, about creating jobs, and opportunities, and increasing investments in infrastructure, or not sending Americans to fight wars they shouldn't?

This is exactly why he got in. People voting for the policies that they see as being best for them and their families, not for the figurehead. 

Chances are that very little of what he promised will actually happen. The bloke is a c**t of the highest order, unbelievable that he will be president, it gives licence to the racists and misogynists and the people who will profit the most are big businesses, just look at which shares shot up yesterday. But people bought into it.

[russycarps]

In fairness to trump, he didnt call all mexicans rapists. It's an ugly quote, but not quite as bad as some people are making out.

" When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people"

[eFestivals]

Just now, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Come on, you can't compact 18 months of campaigning in to that sentence. You have to be more analytical than that.

Oh, he can. Just as he can compact 40 years of EU membership intoi that too.

He's the man who wants to regard himself as smarter than 'racist thickos' who says that 52% of the British public voted for brexit only because they're all racists. Not only that, he also says that they became racist on voting day, because the country changed.

If they really are all racists they've always been racists which means nothing at all changed.

His own argument is at least as stupid as anything he spends so much time condemning.

Meanwhile he believes in aliens from out of space (unless he's given it up...?).

 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Oh, he can. Just as he can compact 40 years of EU membership intoi that too.

He's the man who wants to regard himself as smarter than 'racist thickos' who says that 52% of the British public voted for brexit only because they're all racists. Not only that, he also says that they became racist on voting day, because the country changed.

If they really are all racists they've always been racists which means nothing at all changed.

His own argument is at least as stupid as anything he spends so much time condemning.

Meanwhile he believes in aliens from out of space (unless he's given it up...?).

 

Well, we've all seen that documentary with Drew Barrymore in it

[arcade fireman]

12 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

1. With such sweeping, general statements, is it any wonder people voted the way they did? You make so many assumptions about other people. You know nothing about them, their struggles, their lives, their discrimination or whatever. You think you do, and that's where the trouble sets in.

2. Islam is not a race. It's an ideology. One that if you study the Koran and countries that follow Sharia Law, quite factually and openly supports hatred of women and homosexuals.

3. Yes I agree with you about the 'rapists' part. But like I said, he's not a politician, he's not very PC and I would expect him to be more careful in the future. His point was against illegal immigration but he was wrong to label a whole country as rapists, but the sentiment was that he wanted to stop illegal immigration. Which is fair enough, isn't it? It's illegal after all and that's how we stay a democracy - by following the rules.

4. Yes, these people have congratulated him first, but why? Maybe because going to war is the least favourable choice of Trump's options. He has said he wants to talk to Putin, not battle him. As America's power in the world dwindles, they have to accept the fact they're not going to have supremacy over other countries now and can't just go around fighting everyone. Surely, not going to war or battling another Cold War, is more like peace than anything Hilary and the Drone Happy Democrats would have done?

5. The tax issue is bad too, but that isn't corruption. It's being clever with loopholes and the like, but not corruption. It's perfectly legal and plenty of companies do it. He said he would sew up the holes, so let's see if he does it. Yes, he is wealthy. But I don't see why that makes someone corrupt.

6. You can throw these labels around all you like, but just because you say them, doesn't make them true. He's un-PC sure, but just because you act so offended and flabbergasted doesn't make you right. He hires plenty of women, plenty of Mexicans, plenty of black people, plenty of homosexuals. He wants to make money at the end of the day and live a good life - like most people in the world. You can't do that if you don't hire women, blacks, homosexuals just because they're women, blacks, homosexuals, etc. He's just not a bigot because you don't like his language.
 

1. It isn't a sweeping generalisation. Note I said "most" not "all". Most of the people who voted for Trump were from demographics which aren't traditionally discriminated against in America. White males broke by far the most for Trump, followed by white females quite a bit behind. The idea that this was the poor rising up and voting Trump is also nonsense - though a lot of them did vote for Trump he also carried the vote in the higher income bracket for that demographic. Maybe you're one of those people who claims white people are discriminated just as much as other races.  In which case our views on reality would be somewhat different.

Can you imagine waking up yesterday as a Muslim in America, knowing the country has elected someone who has effectively declared you and your people a persona non grata? I can't imagine what that feels like so I can only empathise not sympathise. Just writing Trump's antics off as "un-PC" don't even go close. 

I would guess my assumptions on you are right, though you could tell me different and I wouldn't know.

2. Islam is a religion. Like Christianity, it has its fair share of abhorrent teachings. What do you think the Bible says about homosexuals? Conflating all Muslims with Sharia Law is ignorant in the extreme. I have no truck with any religion, but recognise the majority of people who practice any given religion are good people. Trump has no acceptance of this. 

3. This is the platform he stood on. This is what people voted for. He suggested at one point women who get abortions should get "some kind of punishment". You can't speculate what he may or may not do - as it happens I agree he won't do all of these things. But this is what people voted for. 

4. Trump as an anti war figure is one of the biggest fallacies of this election. The vast majority of both his party and his supporters supported Iraq, Afghanistan and would support boots on the ground after ISIS. What they object to is foreign aid, bringing in refugees etc.

5. If someone is running for President their position on paying their taxes should be unimpeachable. If this was the case then he would release his tax returns for scrutiny. He didn't. People running for high office shouldn't be just held to legal standards.

6. Yes you're right. None of the bigots in America ever had black housekeepers or cleaners. Being a racist absolutely means you never hire anyone from a different race. 

Trump hiring people from other races just to serve his own needs doesn't preclude him from being a bigot. What a ridiculous argument.

[zahidf]

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'm simply pointing out that that's what people DID DO!!!

Do you think 36% of Latino's voted for Trump's racism against themselves?

Or might they have been voting for him in support of something else?

 

Aliens?

I havent seen final figures but it was more 27% of latinos. But yes, white hispanics can be racist against darker ones.

If you vote for a racist or a racist campaign like LEAVE, the natural assumption is that you agree with those values. Or at the very least willing to overlook it because you wont be effected.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

3. This is the platform he stood on. This is what people voted for.

His platform was waaaay bigger than just that.

What they voted for was something of his platform - and not necessarily just the part of it you wish to concentrate on.

If you wish to play the same reductionist game with the brexit vote, you can also believe that 52% of this country's population are racists - including plenty from within the minorites that live in this country who voted for brexit.

I don't doubt that racism played its part in both votes, but its more than simply that. It's a vote for change rather than more of the same.

Where both falls apart as political ideas is that the change people voted for wasn't the same change for everyone, and so they find themselves as part of a disparate grouping that's going to find it difficult to carry much of that change forwards, because they're not united on what that change should be.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Aliens?

 

7 minutes ago, zahidf said:

I havent seen final figures but it was more 27% of latinos. But yes, white hispanics can be racist against darker ones.

My apologies if I have the percentage wrong, it's pulled from memory and i'm aware I might have it wrong. But whatever, a sizable chunk of the Latino vote went to Trump.

And it's got fuck all to do with any inter-latino racism. FFS.

 

7 minutes ago, zahidf said:

If you vote for a racist or a racist campaign like LEAVE, the natural assumption is that you agree with those values. Or at the very least willing to overlook it because you wont be effected.

You might as well claim that because the KKK supported Trump, Trump was supporting the KKK. 

You don't prove yourself smarter than those you regard of as thick by being just as thick yourself.

 

[zahidf]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

My apologies if I have the percentage wrong, it's pulled from memory and i'm aware I might have it wrong. But whatever, a sizable chunk of the Latino vote went to Trump.

And it's got fuck all to do with any inter-latino racism. FFS.

 

You might as well claim that because the KKK supported Trump, Trump was supporting the KKK. 

You don't prove yourself smarter than those you regard of as thick by being just as thick yourself.

 

He didnt walk back the KKK support. He said anyone can support him

[Cornelius_Fudge]

27 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

1. It isn't a sweeping generalisation. Note I said "most" not "all". Most of the people who voted for Trump were from demographics which aren't traditionally discriminated against in America. White males broke by far the most for Trump, followed by white females quite a bit behind. The idea that this was the poor rising up and voting Trump is also nonsense - though a lot of them did vote for Trump he also carried the vote in the higher income bracket for that demographic. Maybe you're one of those people who claims white people are discriminated just as much as other races.  In which case our views on reality would be somewhat different.

Can you imagine waking up yesterday as a Muslim in America, knowing the country has elected someone who has effectively declared you and your people a persona non grata? I can't imagine what that feels like so I can only empathise not sympathise. Just writing Trump's antics off as "un-PC" don't even go close. 

I would guess my assumptions on you are right, though you could tell me different and I wouldn't know.

2. Islam is a religion. Like Christianity, it has its fair share of abhorrent teachings. What do you think the Bible says about homosexuals? Conflating all Muslims with Sharia Law is ignorant in the extreme. I have no truck with any religion, but recognise the majority of people who practice any given religion are good people. Trump has no acceptance of this. 

3. This is the platform he stood on. This is what people voted for. He suggested at one point women who get abortions should get "some kind of punishment". You can't speculate what he may or may not do - as it happens I agree he won't do all of these things. But this is what people voted for. 

4. Trump as an anti war figure is one of the biggest fallacies of this election. The vast majority of both his party and his supporters supported Iraq, Afghanistan and would support boots on the ground after ISIS. What they object to is foreign aid, bringing in refugees etc.

5. If someone is running for President their position on paying their taxes should be unimpeachable. If this was the case then he would release his tax returns for scrutiny. He didn't. People running for high office shouldn't be just held to legal standards.

6. Yes you're right. None of the bigots in America ever had black housekeepers or cleaners. Being a racist absolutely means you never hire anyone from a different race. 

Trump hiring people from other races just to serve his own needs doesn't preclude him from being a bigot. What a ridiculous argument.

Most is pretty sweeping And you don't know anything about them or what they have dealt with in their lives, so you should never assume.
I can't imagine waking up as a Muslim, no, so I can't imagine what that feels like either.

I would love to know what your assumptions on me would be, as you could make pretty much any general statement and it would cover a lot bases for a lot of people. You can try and I can answer, but that wouldn't make your assumptions any more valid or invalid - just opinions, again, sadly.

Yes, Islam is a religion. Correct. Sadly, it's not ignorant. Even 'moderate' Islam practices submission of women, but you're free to do your own research in to this. It's not about everyone, true, but you shouldn't assume that it's all just fine and happy either and with free speech I believe people should be allowed to be critical of a religion without the threat of violence or recriminations, or someone simply bleating RACIST RACIST, just because someone said something critical. I would suggest a debate that I attached below to watch. Or perhaps watch anything with Christopher Hitchens.

4 - Yes, US intervention is still necessary - because of the fuck up by Bush. You're not going to bring stability there without more help in that area. But preventing a Cold War with Russia is a much more likely scenario with Trump at the helm.

5 - Tax is a legal business and if you know how to legally not pay tax, then it's the law at fault, not the person. The person is still not corrupt for doing so. Morally questionable, but morals are an entirely different prospect.

Number 6 is laughable. There's a big difference between hiring a black person and paying them and a slave trader owning slaves. That's ridiculous and surely you see that? Hiring a black person isn't something you would do if you were racist. Owning a slave to work for free on the basis of captivity is obviously very different. Trump does not run his businesses like cotton plantations.

I suggest watching this debate. It's a very even and well thought out discussion using facts on both the for and against side. Not just people crying racism and other PC labels - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh34Xsq7D_A

 

Edited November 10, 2016 by Cornelius_Fudge

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, zahidf said:

He didnt walk back the KKK support. He said anyone can support him

If he'd said they couldn't support him, does it stop them supporting him...?

Meanwhile not all of his supporters were KKK supporters. But you claim they are.

Unless you think the 12% of blacks who voted Trump support the KKK?

 

Edited November 10, 2016 by eFestivals