news & politics:discussion

[topmarksbri]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I  mean that is such a simplistic way of looking at it it's almost the problem.

Apparently there are working class people down south, and in the cities...and apparently not all northern working class think the same....and I swear to god I saw some young people up here the other day.

 Indeed - some of the highest rates of child poverty in uk are in London.

[steviewevie]

About Starmer, Rayner and that reshuffle by Sienna Rodgers (LabourList)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/11/rayner-sacking-starmer-base-labour-deputy-leader

[Fuzzy Afro]

3 hours ago, DeanoL said:

Labour have a challenge ahead of them for reasons people have touched on here: you have the working class northern Labour voters, and the middle-class southern champagne socialists/young people, and those two groups can't stand each other. I'm not sure there's a way to square that circle. The progressive social policies of the latter find their natural opposition in the former. But the latter won't have any interest in a party that doesn't support those policies, because economically the party doesn't do anything for them either.

But unless we get an early election, there's a massive disruptive element that will come into play because of FPTP, and that is the mass movement of people we're going to see over the coming years. As remote working becomes more of a thing, your middle-class lefties will increasingly be moving out into more traditionally Tory-voting areas. I think we saw the very first shoots of this with the increases Labour support in areas just outside London. People that would normally live in the city their entire lives until retirement will be moving out far earlier.

Broadly this should be good for Labour, but until we actually have an election, I think it's going to be almost impossible to model. 

 

I genuinely wonder if a split would be best in terms of kicking the Tories out of government. You could have two separate parties, one very left-wing economically and favouring woke policies in a social sense. This party would mainly be populated by Corbynite types and would be aimed at hoovering up seats in London and, increasingly, the home counties (as the champagne socialists migrate out of London as they hit their late 20's and early 30's)

 

The other would be a party of more centre-left economics, still favouring a lot of Corbyn policies but without the same level of hatred and disdain for homeowners. Crucially though, they'd drop the woke stuff. This sort of woke policy is despised in the red wall, so this party could win back the red wall.

 

The two parties could then form a coalition after the election. The issue is that they'd probably need to "pick a side" in government.

[eFestivals]

3 hours ago, DeanoL said:

 

Right - so people that have spoken against Starmer are part of the reason he did so badly, but people who spoke against Corbyn weren't part of the reason that Corbyn did so badly, because you're right about Corbyn and people are wrong about Starmer? 

You've been laying into Corbyn for years (and for some reason, still are) - it's complete hypocrisy and your defense basically comes down to you being smarter than everyone else - which happens to be one of the other arguments your berate people for making!

 

You don't need to be smart to know that corbynspolitical baggecwas hugely out of step with the views of the UK electorate.

Much of the criticisms of starmers were inventionssuch as people claiming not to know what Labour stands for if you don't know why care about who is leader?

3 hours ago, DeanoL said:

When you have a strong welfare state, such that the low paid have much of their basic needs taken care of for them regardless, people tend not to mind so much. Yes, I pay 10% more in tax but my rent is 30% cheaper because of rent controls. It balances out.

The people chipping in that other 20%might care.

[Fuzzy Afro]

1 hour ago, topmarksbri said:

I think it's a pretty one way street of distaste here. Most of the second category have no real beef with the former (or at least not that I've experienced) 

They have beef with anyone who isn’t woke. 

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

does not woke = racist?

[Matt42]

I define wokeism is someone who prioritises social justice politics over all other politics.

It is considered a position of privilege that you’re biggest worry in politics is race relations, trans rights, and feminism.

The right wing press has weaponised this - as it’s easy to get poorer communities ‘riled up’ that this is what the middle class cares about, not their problems.

Its the idea that social justice means nothing to someone who lives in poverty. That’s the logic. 
 

I personally find that wokeism is a way to get the working class to hate the middle class instead of the upper class.

[steviewevie]

This person writing about stuff we've been talking about...economic left, social right etc etc

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/11/politics-left-right-tories-advantage-labour

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Matt42 said:

I define wokeism is someone who prioritises social justice politics over all other politics.

It is considered a position of privilege that you’re biggest worry in politics is race relations, trans rights, and feminism.

The right wing press has weaponised this - as it’s easy to get poorer communities ‘riled up’ that this is what the middle class cares about, not their problems.

Its the idea that social justice means nothing to someone who lives in poverty. That’s the logic. 
 

I personally find that wokeism is a way to get the working class to hate the middle class instead of the upper class.

yep, think that is actually spot on.

So...ok....now define how someone is working or middle class? Is it education? What paper you read? How much money you have? Or is it all about production...whether you own the production or work for it?

Deep man.

[Mr.Tease]

Obviously I'm not as fan of Starmer, and I know why I don't like him, but why has he become so unpopular even among Tories and centrists? Does it worry some of the more centrist inclined poster how quickly centrists fall from grace (TIG, Jo Swinson, Starmer) the second they get the slightest bit of scrutiny? (after the initial media joy and easy ride) (genuine questions, not political points!)

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

I define wokeism is someone who prioritises social justice politics over all other politics.

 

actually that is seen from a point of view. Not sure it is actually about priorities over other policies...but they definitely see them as important. I see it as someone who voices support for minorties they are not part of...so when a white person goes on a anti-racism march...I guess they're woke?

Woke and proud here. Go woke.

[Matt42]

7 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yep, think that is actually spot on.

So...ok....now define how someone is working or middle class? Is it education? What paper you read? How much money you have? Or is it all about production...whether you own the production or work for it?

Deep man.

Vocation, Capital, Education. Opportunities, IMO.

A student from a middle class background in Bristol working in a bar / cafe / shop / balancing multiple jobs to get through university is not working class. The problem I think with Labour’s identity is they include these kinds of students in their working class bracket.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Matt42

[Matt42]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

actually that is seen from a point of view. Not sure it is actually about priorities over other policies...but they definitely see them as important. I see it as someone who voices support for minorties they are not part of...so when a white person goes on a anti-racism march...I guess they're woke?

Woke and proud here. Go woke.

There is nothing wrong with woke. The right wing media has made people despise ‘woke’. They might be obnoxious champagne socialists sometimes but it’s nowhere near the evil seen in the tax avoiding workhouse owning upper classes like Rees mog 

[Fuzzy Afro]

The issue with woke nonsense is that it seeks to put people into bucket. He’s this, she’s that, they’re privileged, they’re not. People largely want to be treated as individuals and not labelled. That’s what the centre-right have done well and the reason why woke nonsense is repeatedly rejected at the ballot box.

 

You can definitely be strongly opposed to racism, sexism and homophobia without being woke. 

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Obviously I'm not as fan of Starmer, and I know why I don't like him, but why has he become so unpopular even among Tories and centrists? Does it worry some of the more centrist inclined poster how quickly centrists fall from grace (TIG, Jo Swinson, Starmer) the second they get the slightest bit of scrutiny? (after the initial media joy and easy ride) (genuine questions, not political points!)

I don't know...not sure his selling point was he was centrist, not sure he actually is centrist...just that he was competent, clever, not Corbyn, steady ship etc...I mean there were not really any policies to define him as centrist, really he's still soft left...but after the reshuffle nonsense this weekend he's definitely lost that competent clever tag...he has to me anyway...some terrible decisions. Saturday wasn't a bad day for labour after a terrible friday with Hartlepool etc...he could have just kept quiet and it would have been all about SNP and scottish independence...but instead an internal labour war is all out there in the open for everyone to see. Very poor. He's lucky there's no one obvious to replace him. The biggest threat is bow Rayner...and Burnham.

[steviewevie]

8 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

A student from a middle class background in Bristol working in a bar / cafe / shop / balancing multiple jobs to get through university is not working class. The problem I think with Labour’s identity is they include these kinds of students in their working class bracket.

ok...but she is still important right..I mean...this is someone labour should still be there for.

 

[Ozanne]

9 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Obviously I'm not as fan of Starmer, and I know why I don't like him, but why has he become so unpopular even among Tories and centrists? Does it worry some of the more centrist inclined poster how quickly centrists fall from grace (TIG, Jo Swinson, Starmer) the second they get the slightest bit of scrutiny? (after the initial media joy and easy ride) (genuine questions, not political points!)

It worries me but not because of Centrists, I don't really care about that. It worries because it means we might not end up with a Labour government in 2024. That's the most important thing for me so when I see stuff like this it does make me worry but not because of left/centrist stuff.

It's been a difficult time to be a Leader of the Opposition though in a pandemic where he can't really get himself out there and all his effective opposition has been at PMQs when not many watch that. Obviously mistakes have been made but generally speaking Labour had clawed back ground in the polls up until the New Year. I have faith that when the vaccine bounce is over and tougher decisions have to be made by the government then Starmer & Labour can make up ground again.

[steviewevie]

8 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

There is nothing wrong with woke. The right wing media has made people despise ‘woke’. They might be obnoxious champagne socialists sometimes but it’s nowhere near the evil seen in the tax avoiding workhouse owning upper classes like Rees mog 

see....and this where it is just shity right wing media driving this. As if caring about minorities is something only privileged people care about. I went on a remainer and anti trump marches and that was definitely middle class waitrose fodder. I also went on a black lives matter protest and that was definitely not.

[Matt42]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

see....and this where it is just shity right wing media driving this. As if caring about minorities is something only privileged people care about. I went on a remainer and anti trump marches and that was definitely middle class waitrose fodder. I also went on a black lives matter protest and that was definitely not.

It’s all the sun and the mail and the vox pops complaining about drag queen story time at schools.

Its made the working class despise this.

[steviewevie]

Just now, Matt42 said:

It’s all the sun and the mail and the vox pops complaining about drag queen story time at schools.

Its made the working class despise this.

"some" of the working class.....and probably "some" of the middle class....

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

 

I genuinely wonder if a split would be best in terms of kicking the Tories out of government. You could have two separate parties, one very left-wing economically and favouring woke policies in a social sense. This party would mainly be populated by Corbynite types and would be aimed at hoovering up seats in London and, increasingly, the home counties (as the champagne socialists migrate out of London as they hit their late 20's and early 30's)

 

The other would be a party of more centre-left economics, still favouring a lot of Corbyn policies but without the same level of hatred and disdain for homeowners. Crucially though, they'd drop the woke stuff. This sort of woke policy is despised in the red wall, so this party could win back the red wall.

 

The two parties could then form a coalition after the election. The issue is that they'd probably need to "pick a side" in government.

Spltting the anti tory vote some more would be a gift to the tories. 

[Mimo]

How are we defining “The Working Class” these days?

[steviewevie]

12 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Spltting the anti tory vote some more would be a gift to the tories. 

yeah, that is the problem, with out voting sytem any split is a disaster and just helps the tories. It's bad enough as it is. With PR then yes, labour should split (and tories might too).

[eFestivals]

31 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

It worries me but not because of Centrists, I don't really care about that. It worries because it means we might not end up with a Labour government in 2024. That's the most important thing for me so when I see stuff like this it does make me worry but not because of left/centrist stuff.

It's been a difficult time to be a Leader of the Opposition though in a pandemic where he can't really get himself out there and all his effective opposition has been at PMQs when not many watch that. Obviously mistakes have been made but generally speaking Labour had clawed back ground in the polls up until the New Year. I have faith that when the vaccine bounce is over and tougher decisions have to be made by the government then Starmer & Labour can make up ground again.

It's quite a trick to miss the Starmer smear campaign from the continuity corbynites