news & politics:discussion

[mattiloy]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

People worse off ??

I very much doubt people in 2020's are worse off than the people in 1970's...

The graph attached shows the birth year along the bottom with the % of the cohort who earn more or less than their parents did, adjusted for inflation, aged 27 and 38. The latest cohort, those born between 1980-1984 (those who would be school leavers around the millenium) would be the main beneficiaries of Thatcherite and Blairite aspirational politics. But more of them are less well of than their parents than more.

Since median weekly wages have actually fallen in the UK since 2008 then You can expect that those born later will be similar.

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

People worse off ??

I very much doubt people in 2020's are worse off than the people in 1970's...

Definitely not if nothing else the housing is hugely better. And people have much more stuff.

[mattiloy]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Definitely not if nothing else the housing is hugely better. And people have much more stuff.

People have more stuff because of technological innovations making stuff better and cheaper. The internet has removed the need for large fixed costs for retail stores. Has little to do with Blair or Thatcher.

Average houseprice/average salary ratio has gone up from around 3/4 to around 8.

[Haan]

"In privatising social housing, Margaret Thatcher fashioned a machine for making Tory voters: four in ten ex-council homes bought under Right to Buy are now owned by private landlords. While pay packets languish, house prices continue to appreciate in value – even in areas otherwise defined by declining high streets, low wages, and limited job opportunities. There are divergent material interests between a worker who’s haemorrhaging half their salary in rent and a pensioner who relies on the upward trajectory of their property value to cover the costs of care in their old age. As the young cluster around cities and Britain’s towns age, generational inequalities in wealth become difficult to untangle from differences in cultural outlook."

 https://novaramedia.com/2021/05/10/everybody-is-doing-identity-politics-even-if-they-think-theyre-not/

[mcshed]

Meanwhile in France a load of right wing nutters in the army are threatening civil war because they don't like Muslims.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57055154

[mattiloy]

8 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Its funny when the positive effects of capitalism are talked about the likes of Blair and Thatcher are told they can't take credit while you constantly panning them for being capitalists 🙂 

That orange line made a huge difference to the people who bought their council houses in the 80s.  Yeah granted we now lack council houses but if we are talking about personal wealth you are utterly deluded to use house prices as an example 🙂 

 

I have no issue with properly regulated and fairly taxed capitalism.

I’m simply saying the kids who were born under Thatcher and thus are the fruit of the Thatcherite/Blairite production line have a load of student debt, little chance of getting on the property ladder, lower wages, less job security. There is nothing aspirational about the economic landscape created by the greedy bastards in power during the 80s and 90s, their so called ’aspirational’ politics’ only sought to fulfill the aspirations of the politicians themselves and their super rich backers.

[eFestivals]

23 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

People have more stuff because of technological innovations making stuff better and cheaper. The internet has removed the need for large fixed costs for retail stores. Has little to do with Blair or Thatcher.

Average houseprice/average salary ratio has gone up from around 3/4 to around 8.

I wasn't on about house prices I was talking about the quality of housing there's far fewer semi derelict slums. I haven't seen anywhere as bad as some if the places I lived in the 70s since the 70s and I used to be a jobbing electrician and went in lots of random houses.

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, mcshed said:

Meanwhile in France a load of right wing nutters in the army are threatening civil war because they don't like Muslims.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57055154

They're not threatening civil war they're warning it might happen. And less to do with their own views in Muslims and more to do with we hatvthey think the average Frenchie thinks.

[mcshed]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

They're not threatening civil war they're warning it might happen. And less to do with their own views in Muslims and more to do with we hatvthey think the average Frenchie thinks.

"They gave their skin to destroy the Islamism to which you are giving concessions on our soil," they wrote.

Sounds like it's their opinion but go out swinging for Le Pen if you want.

[Fuzzy Afro]

At least if Le Pen wins the presidency it might show some of these weird Corbynites what an actual far right politician is. 

[Ommadawn]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

Idk Brown was always one of the more academic amongst new labour - maybe he’s kept abreast of the latest thought in academic economics. Namely that Thatcherism, Blairism (/Reaganism if you’re a yank) failed to deliver on people’s aspirations with more people worse off, than there were better of than their parents for the first time on record and only the top 1% appearing to benefit.

Its just not sustainable to pursue a neoliberal economic plan any longer. Biden realises it, the fed is also full of tax and spenders nowadays. Times are a changing.

Yes,  they were so worse off, they kept voting them back in again.

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, mcshed said:

"They gave their skin to destroy the Islamism to which you are giving concessions on our soil," they wrote.

Sounds like it's their opinion but go out swinging for Le Pen if you want.

I guess it links back to the Algerian war of independence.

[mcshed]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

I guess it links back to the Algerian war of independence.

However, the authors of the letter describe themselves as part of a younger generation of soldiers who have served in Afghanistan, Mali and the Central African Republic, or joined domestic anti-terrorism operations.

 

[Haan]

2 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Do you ever think for yourself lol ? 

I have no problem admitting people are smarter than me, and I like reading their stuff to get a better understanding of the world. It's how informed opinions are made 🙂

[mattiloy]

13 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Actually very little of that is true in reality.  There is a subset of people who that no doubt applies too but its not a common outcome.  Most people who went to University in the 80s / 90s didn't have much student debt, did get on the property ladder and had good careers.  Your talking shit basically.

Tuition fees didn't come in until 1998 (I know - I was first year to pay them) and they where only £1k if you didnt get a reduction based on your parents lack of income.

Also - modern student debt is more of enhanced tax rate than an actual debt.

So much shit you talk 🙂 

Aspirational implies social mobility. Social mobility is a generational thing. If you’re wanting to assess Thatcherism or Blairism by social mobility, its no use looking at those who were already mid career adults when Thatcher got into power, but those who grew up under those govts.

Weird arguing that uni students in the 80s had no debt as a plus point for Thatcherism or Blairism when free fees were brought in by a Labour government... Well, after 3 decades of the marketisation of the economy, now students have upwards of £30,000 debt at least. Hows that for a reward for aspiring to achieve something?

If house prices were low in the 80s compared to now its thanks to a massive post war council house building programme by a Labour government.

Since then new council houses are rare as rocking horse shit so demand for private tenancies vastly outstrips supply and the buy to let barons moved in, this further restricts supply and pushes house prices and rents higher, making houses less affordable and tenants able to save less of their income for a deposit. 

[Haan]

6 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Not when you only read the stuff you want to believe 🙂 

feel free to send me your "thatcher was good actually" piece happy to read it

[Haan]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

Woke Fortnightly 😄 

[steviewevie]

Meanwhile in Israel.

 

[mattiloy]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

Its not £30,000 debt though is it...  Its an extra tax rate you have to pay when you earn above the threshold...  That is the actual reality of student "debt".  And you only pay it back at x % over that threshold.  And when you paint it incorrectly as  £30,000 all it dose is putt off the kid from the council estate unnecessarily.  Thankfully Martin Lewis has been battling this misconception for years.  Sadly a lot of lefties who don't care about aspiration or the working class families they now look down on attack it and misrepresent it and the opportunities higher education bring.  Another example of Labour losing its way.

Labour and its activists have nothing to offer.  You have ladled aspiration as bad and instead think people should be happy with their lot.  

Here is an index of social mobility. What do the top countries have in common?

A proper progressive tax system and a large welfare state.

If you think bright people are put off from starting businesses in a country with an expansive welfare state, you’d also be mistaken with Sweden having the largest number of ’unicorn’ startups per capita anywhere outside of silicon valley.

In the end, the kind of smart, creative people who are driven to innovate are more interested in living, and raising kids, in a functioning society and paying a little bit more tax.

Otherwise why aren’t tax havens absolute loaded with young, bright, aspirational tech guys?

Why don’t all the young bright sparks of Europe go and live in the Czech Republic where personal tax is a flat 15%.

Every argument you raise falls short. It is just baloney. I’d recommend going to a library (quick whilst they’re still free!) and doing some reading.

[mattiloy]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Meanwhile in Israel.

 

What happens when a fascist regime is given free license because everybody is shit scared of speaking out (or heaven forbid even advocate political action like boycott, divest and sanctions) and being smeared as an antisemite

[mattiloy]

1 minute ago, Barry Fish said:

Yeah its all about the benefits 🙂 typical Labour 😄 

Neither you nor anybody in your sphere benefits from the policies you advocate but somewhere along the way you’ve been convinced that they do. Its sad. Shows just how effective the tory propaganda campaign has been. Giving people with no clue about how economics works, a feeling of absolute certainty that the policies that benefit only the top 1% are the only viable policies and everything else is fantasy, regardless of the evidence for it working being put in front of your nose.

Its depressing. A large section of society lobotomised by decades of absorbing propaganda from the right.

[Fuzzy Afro]

8 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Neither you nor anybody in your sphere benefits from the policies you advocate but somewhere along the way you’ve been convinced that they do. Its sad. Shows just how effective the tory propaganda campaign has been. Giving people with no clue about how economics works, a feeling of absolute certainty that the policies that benefit only the top 1% are the only viable policies and everything else is fantasy, regardless of the evidence for it working being put in front of your nose.

Its depressing. A large section of society lobotomised by decades of absorbing propaganda from the right.

Maybe they know they’re better off under Labour but they think voting Tory is a right laugh because it causes lefties to have a cranial meltdown 🙂 

[steviewevie]

13 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

What happens when a fascist regime is given free license because everybody is shit scared of speaking out (or heaven forbid even advocate political action like boycott, divest and sanctions) and being smeared as an antisemite

I mean it's not too dissimilar to US police response to black lives matter protesters last year.

[steviewevie]

with all the tory nobs on here and so in turn all the tory nobs you must get at glastonbury these days, maybe they need a right field. They could have guest speakers like Rees Mogg, Patel and twatty guido fawkes man.

[Paul ™]

Just now, steviewevie said:

with all the tory nobs on here and so in turn all the tory nobs you must get at glastonbury these days, maybe they need a right field. They could have guest speakers like Rees Mogg, Patel and twatty guido fawkes man.

They could call it the 'Fuck Right Off Field'