Don't vote Tory

[chatty]

1 hour ago, Mr.Tease said:

Sorry but the argument that it's people who voted against brexit that are to blame for brexit is complete cobblers that some on the media tried to push since the outcome. The people who voted brexit are the reason for brexit- that's it! 

Not at all. Things arent black and white, there was a massive amount of people in the middle who didnt know what they wanted to vote, never knew much about the topic and were unsure of where to go.

Considering all the opinion polls in the lead up had remain a good seven percentent ahead and it was a huge favourite to win then there was obviously an upturn in opinion and these voters will have been the ones who caused that. 

Not saying it was this alone but it certainly had an effect. I saw plenty of people calling leave voters alsorts of names and anyone who was in the middle would and were swayed by that. When the result is one pwrcent difference then you can attribute any area of failure to swinging the vote and this was most definitely one of them. To thibk otherwise is to just put your head in the sand. 

[chatty]

1 hour ago, Alex DeLarge said:

I agree with some of your points, but this one is an argument that many people bring up and it's basically just nonsense to me. 

Insults are flung around a lot by a lot of people on the political spectrum, I've seen remain voters called traitors, enemies of the people, elitist and then stupid insults like cucks as well. If a couple of morons using insults is enough to sway your vote, you need to re-examine your argument, I didn't let Jo Cox's death sour my view of every single leave voter in the country.

Sure the otherside call people as well and when they do it gets people on the left/centres back up and makes them more resolute as well. Difference is the right can afford to lose some in the middle, the left/centre cant. 

What people seem to be struggling to understand is that the far right and far left voters arent going to be swayed but those in the middle can because they are indecisive and not fully reasearched or even often not all that interested but will vote anyway.

When you splitting votes by a single percentage then thinking that abusing sway voters isnt going to effect them is just ignorant. 

[dirty_dog]

Tories have made massive cuts to all services and public sector and still managed to double our national debt, 

Have also completely Vandalised our NHS and education system so if you vote for them you're either a bit thick,

in the 1%, or a massive c*nt !!

[musky]

14 minutes ago, chatty said:

Not at all. Things arent black and white, there was a massive amount of people in the middle who didnt know what they wanted to vote, never knew much about the topic and were unsure of where to go.

Considering all the opinion polls in the lead up had remain a good seven percentent ahead and it was a huge favourite to win then there was obviously an upturn in opinion and these voters will have been the ones who caused that. 

Not saying it was this alone but it certainly had an effect. I saw plenty of people calling leave voters alsorts of names and anyone who was in the middle would and were swayed by that. When the result is one pwrcent difference then you can attribute any area of failure to swinging the vote and this was most definitely one of them. To thibk otherwise is to just put your head in the sand. 

If you're going to assert that undecided voters would have been influenced in significant numbers by insults directed at voters who had decided how to vote by the opposing side you're going to have to provide some evidence to support that.

Anything else is unsupported conjecture.

[chatty]

31 minutes ago, musky said:

If you're going to assert that undecided voters would have been influenced in significant numbers by insults directed at voters who had decided how to vote by the opposing side you're going to have to provide some evidence to support that.

Anything else is unsupported conjecture.

Well it is conjecture but you can say that for pretty much anything on either side of the argument. The main problem is with the remain argument is that it blew a seven percent near nailed on victory by getting dragged down to a petty level and coming out worse. 

Im not saying that this was the decisive part of swaying the vote but it will have certainly helped. 

You can say its conjecture but saying everyone who voted against is racist, thick c**ts is exactly the same. 

[chatty]

36 minutes ago, dirty_dog said:

Tories have made massive cuts to all services and public sector and still managed to double our national debt, 

Have also completely Vandalised our NHS and education system so if you vote for them you're either a bit thick,

in the 1%, or a massive c*nt !!

Oh I agree, the Tories are scum but a lot of people are easily swayed by mis facts and propaganda. Also history and geography plays a part but Im not seeing a way how petty name calling changes things for the better. 

Ill be voting labour, not that it matters where I live but I dont think left voters is enough to change the flow so we need to look at other ways of turning the tide. 

Or just accept it and get on our knees. 

I prefer the former. 

[musky]

Just now, chatty said:

Well it is conjecture but you can say that for pretty much anything on either side of the argument. The main problem is with the remain argument is that it blew a seven percent near nailed on victory by getting dragged down to a petty level and coming out worse. 

Im not saying that this was the decisive part of swaying the vote but it will have certainly helped. 

You can say its conjecture but saying everyone who voted against is racist, thick c**ts is exactly the same. 

Actually I think you'll find there's empirical support that the leave camp had a higher percentage of the under educated and those holding some views that could be considered racist.

`i think you're putting too much stock in the 'solid' opinion polls though. Far from being a solid 7% lead, two polls 2 days earlier gave Leave a narrow lead and a week before that a string of polls gave them over a 10% lead. The polls were faulty (we know that) and the pollsters have given a number of valid reasons as to why they were wrong. None of those reasons included the insults being bandied about.

[adjwholovesmusic]

Brexit is a conservative party wet dream. The whole campaign was a stitch up from start to finish and they got the result they have always wanted.  Employment legislation and the protections the EU gives us will start to be eroded once Theresa May gets her EU deal, The NHS will continue it's collapse and end in private hands once free trade agreements are put in place and the continued theme of business first, ordinary people last as the poor get poorer and the rich get richer. Staff in the public sector have not had pay rises for nearly 7 years which for an economy that  is supposedly going from strength to strength is showing no kick backs to it's workers. This mantra is now moving into the private sector where businesses are using the Brexit as an excuse to limit pay increases. By voting conservative we are giving them everything they have ever dreamed off right on their plate. Keep the working people in their place while they reap every single benefit on our behalf. Anyone in any doubt watch this film. 

 

Edited April 19, 2017 by adjwholovesmusic

[priest17]

Was planning on leaving this thread and letting it fall back but I went to the cinema and watched I, Daniel Blake at the cinema earlier this evening and have had a few drinks since and I'd love a decent summary of why the people who have said they're voting tory are doing so, for purely informational non-argumentative reasons. There's facts that prove that story is factual for thousands and it's haunting.

Also, any smiths fans might get a minor kick out of this if you haven't heard it, it's a good laugh (I'm sure it's been posted before)

 

 

[waterfalls212434]

if you vote tory your a heartless c**t, its that simple. no excuses even listened to, ignorance is not an excuse anymore, this will be the 3rd tory govt (first one part of the coalition obviously) of the modern era so we know damn well by now what this tory party of 2017 are like in terms of policy and attitude and none of it is fair, morally right or good for the future in any sense of the word.





 

Edited April 19, 2017 by waterfalls212434

[chatty]

58 minutes ago, musky said:

Actually I think you'll find there's empirical support that the leave camp had a higher percentage of the under educated and those holding some views that could be considered racist.

`i think you're putting too much stock in the 'solid' opinion polls though. Far from being a solid 7% lead, two polls 2 days earlier gave Leave a narrow lead and a week before that a string of polls gave them over a 10% lead. The polls were faulty (we know that) and the pollsters have given a number of valid reasons as to why they were wrong. None of those reasons included the insults being bandied about.

Well sure the opinion polls were defniitely out but they used to be a reliable estimate of how people were thinking and I do believe that there was a big sway on the week of voting. 

Obviously there is a lot of factors for a whole variety of reasons but im sure you can agree all the name calling did little to help matters. 

As I keep saying, A one percent split and a different approach could have swayed the vote. Its not just the name calling but how a lot of voters could have been swayed to either vote or vote a different way with a more positive spin on the debates. 

There was more non voters than voters, thats always the case but theres a lot of people who could have voted or went the other way that maybes could have cahnged things with a more positive attitude. 

[chatty]

1 minute ago, waterfalls212434 said:

if you vote tory your a heartless c**t, its that simple. no excuses even listened to, ignorance is not an excuse anymore, this will be the 3rd tory govt (first one part of the coalition obviously) of the modern era so we know damn well by now what this tory party of 2017 are like in terms of policy and attitude and none of it is fair, morally right or good for the future in any sense of the word.





 

Ignorance isnt an excuse but it is a factor. People in general arent that heartless but they are being swayed and whether thats via propaganda, mis-information, geography, history or just voting on the fly for all those reasons combined, it is a major percentage that cant be written off. 

As Ive said its up to the opposition to either change or give up and accept it. Were the minority and have been for a long while so to change things we have to change. 

[arcade fireman]

Who does everyone want to be Labour leader after this shit storm is over?

Only one suitable candidate for me - Sir Keir Starmer. 

[Wanderlei]

Corbyn would make a fantastic Prime Minister.

[Martin Ashford]

[Levitz]

I'm so glad we get to relive the referendum campaign multiplied by the 2015 GE. A bit more jingoism, anti pluralism plus humiliation of a different Labour leader in MSM. Delightful.......

If nothing else people should vote against the Tories for putting us through this for a third year running. If we're not a one party state or at civil war by July perhaps they'll have another go next year....

 

If you want a distraction here's a live feed of some 9 day old kittens....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od1-koPkMjI

Edited April 19, 2017 by Levitz

[Sasperella]

1 hour ago, arcade fireman said:

Who does everyone want to be Labour leader after this shit storm is over?

Only one suitable candidate for me - Sir Keir Starmer. 

Clive Lewis maybe?

[TunaBaby]

8 hours ago, arcade fireman said:

Who does everyone want to be Labour leader after this shit storm is over?

Only one suitable candidate for me - Sir Keir Starmer. 

Keri Starmer would be excellent. I'm also a big fan of Chuka Umunna and Dan Jarvis 

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

I actually sympathise with Russy here. It's all very well saying calling people thick that voted to leave was the reason people voted to leave, but to anybody with a modicum of common sense and without any sort of racist tendencies it was a completely retarded and irrational thing to do, so I can understand his frustration and a lot of other people's frustration about not being able to get common sense to cut through.

For me the campaign was won on two fronts, the leave campaign constantly repeating certain buzz phrases (£350m NHS etc) that eventually sunk in, and Corbyns lack of engagement. 

When the leave campaign just kept shouting £350m and Turkey has a population of 80m over and over again, those statements can easily be unpicked with rational explanation, but unfortunately it would still take a few minutes and a few paragraphs to do so. When I have reasoned debate about it now I can actually help people who believed it understand it's complete bollocks, but it takes me 5-10 minutes.

[st dan]

Labour has managed to massively disillusion the 'millennials' and younger generations, and in doing so has caused the biggest single factor in why they have been, and will continue to take a battering. 

In terms of a new leader, it has to be Keir or preferably Chuka for me - either of which are a lot more in touch with modern world we live in and are way more relatable to younger generation and voter than Jeremy bloody Corbyn.

Unfortunately the party leaders play a far more important role than they probably should do in the election run ups (probably more than the policies themselves to a lot of people), and the 'lesser educated' voter will simply vote for who they 'like' best.

As nice of a guy as he is, and as much as his heart in undoubtably in the right place, Corbyn will undoubtably lose this battle, as he is reminiscent of that creepy far extended family member who sits in the corner drinking stout on his own at parties, who nobody wants to speak to. He just doesn't 'get' modern politics and the key tactics required to run a strong campagain in 2017 and onwards. 

[dimus]

[Thunderstruck]

I've got to say that whether you like the tories or not there's a lot of misinformation flying around. For example the Tory party did not unanimously want Brexit - both the previous PM and the current one wanted to remain. The tories disproportionately get criticised, but what about labour? Corbyn is completely useless and has dragged the party down the toilet for his own political gain! His main achievement has been strengthening the Tory party!

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

3 minutes ago, st dan said:

Labour has managed to massively disillusion the 'millennials' and younger generations, and in doing so has caused the biggest single factor in why they have been, and will continue to take a battering. 

In terms of a new leader, it has to be Keir or preferably Chuka for me - either of which are a lot more in touch with modern world we live in and are way more relatable to younger generation and voter than Jeremy bloody Corbyn.

Unfortunately the party leaders play a far more important role than they probably should do in the election run ups (probably more than the policies themselves to a lot of people), and the 'lesser educated' voter will simply vote for who they 'like' best.

As nice of a guy as he is, and as much as his heart in undoubtably in the right place, Corbyn will undoubtably lose this battle, as he is reminiscent of that creepy far extended family member who sits in the corner drinking stout on his own at parties, who nobody wants to speak to. He just doesn't 'get' modern politics and the key tactics required to run a strong campagain in 2017 and onwards. 

I think Chukka would be perfect, he has the charisma and the likeability, didn't he rule himself out before though?

[st dan]

8 minutes ago, Deaf Nobby Burton said:

I actually sympathise with Russy here. It's all very well saying calling people thick that voted to leave was the reason people voted to leave, but to anybody with a modicum of common sense and without any sort of racist tendencies it was a completely retarded and irrational thing to do, so I can understand his frustration and a lot of other people's frustration about not being able to get common sense to cut through.

For me the campaign was won on two fronts, the leave campaign constantly repeating certain buzz phrases (£350m NHS etc) that eventually sunk in, and Corbyns lack of engagement. 

When the leave campaign just kept shouting £350m and Turkey has a population of 80m over and over again, those statements can easily be unpicked with rational explanation, but unfortunately it would still take a few minutes and a few paragraphs to do so. When I have reasoned debate about it now I can actually help people who believed it understand it's complete bollocks, but it takes me 5-10 minutes.

That's fair enough and I completely agree, but it was a fantastic campaign by Boris and Nigel in the respect that they won it when nobody thought they had a chance. Nobody can deny that. As was proved, it was a campaign filled by lies and propaganda - but unfortunately that is allowed and people can get swept in by this if they wish. 

The Remain campaign didn't do enough to counter this as they just wrongly assumed the scaremongering by the Leave campaign wouldn't be enough to sway enough voters. They should have been running their own scare tactics (e.g. potential of losing the EU anti terrorism funding, increased cost of holidays to Spain etc). Whilst they may be dumbed down, and (potentially untrue) points, they would have hit home with many 'uneducated' voters. Just like the Leave campaign managed. 

[eastynh]

Who are the thick ones? The lowly educated and poorly paid who felt like they had nothing to lose and voted for Brexit in the hope that their lives would improve, or the supposedly intelligent ones amongst us who failed to convince the apparent thickos that we are better off in the EU?

This whole sorry episode has just highlighted how selfish we are in this country. Those shouting racist and thicko are only interested in themselves, just as the ones who voted for Brexit are.

No such thing as the greater good in this country.

The remainers have had their noses put out and instead of trying to address the route cause they just chuck out insults. 

For the record I am pro Labour and pro EU.