Don't vote Tory

[waterfalls212434]

anyway you know what its a sunny day outside and ive got grass that has grown to worthy farm cow pleasing levels that I need to sort out seeing as I wont get a chance next week (wheee giddy with excitement!)

so ill just leave you with this,, enjoy watching your best pal humiliate mrs may  Full of confidence, full of support. utterly owning theresa may, may things go on this way.
 

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by waterfalls212434

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, waterfalls212434 said:

thats not what your observation is suggesting, your suggesting that 1 single policy platform was the ONLY reason 1 demographic of people voted labour......and that IS insane

No it wasn't. You've made that up all by yourself.

Policy platforms attract votes. Free uni was part of that platform.

[Scott129]

24 minutes ago, frostypaw said:

This. It's been pretty horrible and sneery.

I saw some reports afters where they'd gone and asked those very voters and almost without exception they said they voted for the policy that was actually full of hope and ideas for the future, not to free themselves of the student loans.

It's really rather rude and demeaning, when there was the option of asking rather than presuming.

Exactly I saw an interview with a very bitter Lord Sugar, who stated that young people were "naive" and "didn't know what they were voting for". We should be encouraging everyone to vote, not demonizing those who do. Yes some young people won't know a lot about politics, but then that is the same for every generation, yet it would be wrong to criticise them

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

Fair point and of course free uni will have had some effect, and we'll never know exaxtly how much. But I do think it goes a lot deeper than that. I think the frustration felt at the referendum result probably had the biggest impact (but thats just my gut feeling).

You might well be right about brexit being the biggest motivator of all, as the brexit effect can very definitely be detected in how the votes changed in many constituencies.

Tho of course if it was that, then that's something else which will go away in the future, just as the offer of free uni would go away once free uni has been delivered.

 

2 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

Regardless what frustrates me is people (not you or anyone on here) criticising young people. Even if they did vote because of the promise to abolish tuition fees, there would be no such criticism of the older generation voting in their own interests (e.g. to protect the triple lock)

Young people are very definately as-entitled to vote as anyone else as far as I'm concerned.

And I want them to keep voting, which is why I was raising the question of whether they would do when (after free uni were introduced) the offer couldn't be the same as it was this time.

[frostypaw]

18 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

But more factual than those who first tried to brush off that it hugely likely to have been a part of it.

It was the brushing off with non-facts that was sneery.

 

there was a platform which included free uni. Free uni will have made that platform more appealing than it would otherwise have been to those who might benefit from free uni.

Any other take on things is totally illogical, unless coming from the angle that policy makes no difference to votes gained - which would remove all initial justifications given for why Corbyn should be leader.

Nobody is saying it wasn't a factor at all - you are saying it was THE factor.

 

That's what's being disputed, and once more through such black and white absolutism you're guaranteed to be wrong.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, frostypaw said:

Nobody is saying it wasn't a factor at all - you are saying it was THE factor.

I didn't say it was "the" factor. You've made that part up.

Just like you've made up "Nobody is saying it wasn't a factor at all" - cos the first replies were all about how it was something on offer *ONLY* to the newest intake.

 

Quote

That's what's being disputed, and once more through such black and white absolutism you're guaranteed to be wrong.

Says the man who just made two *FACTUALLY AND PROVABLE* wrong statements in the preceding lines.

Edited June 14, 2017 by eFestivals

[frostypaw]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I didn't say it was "the" factor. You've made that part up.

*facepalm*

I would hit the size limit on this post linking all the times you've said almost exactly that. This is pointless.

[babyblade41]

15 minutes ago, Bluebella said:

 

Name calling and mindless accusations ultimately help none of us to debate these issues effectively. We ALL benefit from efficient and effective policies, whether it be the NHS, state of the roads or education issues yet all I see are people fighting mindlessly amongst themselves. Its a shame that in 2017 this is the best we can manage.

ran out of up votes.. but I couldn't agree more 

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, frostypaw said:

*facepalm*

I would hit the size limit on this post linking all the times you've said almost exactly that. This is pointless.

there's no maker-upper like a Corbynista. Yep, I know.

How's your counting going? Still stuck on just two instances of shit?

[Scott129]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

You might well be right about brexit being the biggest motivator of all, as the brexit effect can very definitely be detected in how the votes changed in many constituencies.

Tho of course if it was that, then that's something else which will go away in the future, just as the offer of free uni would go away once free uni has been delivered.

I just mean, I think this generation is very frustrated at the older generation seemingly getting its way on issues that will affect them a lot more (Because they actually bother to vote.). Hopefully that frustration can be mobilised to get them to vote consistently. Another issue is parties rarely target young voters with policies (because they don't traditionally vote). So perhaps after the turnout this time, parties (in particular the Conservatives) will aim more policies at young people, which in turn will lead them to continue voting

[babyblade41]

1 minute ago, Scott129 said:

I just mean, I think this generation is very frustrated at the older generation seemingly getting its way on issues that will affect them a lot more (Because they actually bother to vote.). Hopefully that frustration can be mobilised to get them to vote consistently. Another issue is parties rarely target young voters with policies (because they don't traditionally vote). So perhaps after the turnout this time, parties (in particular the Conservatives) will aim more policies at young people, which in turn will lead them to continue voting

It would be good to see, but I'd rather not declare policies to encourage the younger voters just to get votes if the policy that entices will not be financially viable .

I'm not sure who voted for what but if there was a high proportion of young voters agreeing to the free uni etc then not possible to carry it out then you have lost those voters for good.

 

Glad I'm not a politician I'd be useless 

[eFestivals]

Just now, Scott129 said:

I just mean, I think this generation is very frustrated at the older generation seemingly getting its way on issues that will affect them a lot more (Because they actually bother to vote.). Hopefully that frustration can be mobilised to get them to vote consistently. Another issue is parties rarely target young voters with policies (because they don't traditionally vote). So perhaps after the turnout this time, parties (in particular the Conservatives) will aim more policies at young people, which in turn will lead them to continue voting

tho of course the other side of that is that if young people are getting more things to their liking, then (if what you say there about frustration is right) there won't be that frustration to motivate them.

Even if not a single person was motivated by free uni to cast a vote (which would be a rather extraordinary claim, but there you go), the other factors which would have motivated them this time don't necessarily stay there to motivate them next time, so the same "what gets them out to vote" for elections in the future is still there.

(obviously, with free uni not coming via this election it'll still be able to be offered next time, but if it ever does get delivered that particular motivator goes away).

[Teddington]

57 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

how am I generalising? I didnt say all torys are doing this did I but by and large the majority now attacking young people for how they voted `are` tory supporters upset at the how the result went and the press which backs them up. I love how this comment wasnt even aimed at you yet you seem to be taking it personally, bit sensitive this morning eh?

Oh and if you dont have a little rant when you see people actively saying people who dont vote `the right way` should have their vote taken away then theres something wrong with you pal!....and that IS aimed at you so feel free to rant away.  I unlike yourself wont try and tell you how to speak

You have proof of that do you?

It's also a meaningless statement without quantifying the numbers. 

[Teddington]

Despite the doom and gloom the hung parliament might actually be fairer all round for the upcoming Brexit negotiations.  Might.

 

I think given the finality of Brexit, it would be wrong for any Government to exclude the other parties from the talks.  Given the voting intent last year a "soft" Brexit would be more reflective of public opinion, and this is more likely with cross party support.

 

I find Corbyn's stance of "I'm not talking to the Tories unless x,y,z" to be childish and dangerous.  Just as I would if the boot were on the other foot.

[DeanoL]

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Anyone stopped to think about what will get the youngsters out to vote after they've taken the free-uni bribe?

It's great they voted, but there won't always be something of such big relevance to get their attention with.

Well that's after a Labour government that introduced it, so five years on and they'll be older then. And the new young people won't want to vote for a party that'll reintroduce it?

Plus student loans have been about since the 1990s, so a write-off doesn't just influence young people.

I think tuition fees was a very big issue in this election but less in a "voting for my own benefit" thing. Rather, tuition fees are a very visible demonstration of the gap between the generations in terms of what they got. The older generation got free tuition and maintenance grants, the current one get huge debts. There's no way you can argue that's fair, it's just not a position that works. You can argue we can no longer afford it, but you can't argue it's fair. 

The other ways that gap manifests: rental economy vs house ownership, job security etc. are a lot harder to get your head around and far less stark in the differential.

So the tuition fees thing becomes more than just that. It becomes "vote for us if you want fairness" and everyone wants to think they want things to be fair.

[frostypaw]

34 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

there's no maker-upper like a Corbynista. Yep, I know.

I'm not even a big Corbyn supporter. Please put the prejudices down, it's pretty horrible and I prefer to consider you a friend

[Warbler]

2 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Well that's after a Labour government that introduced it, so five years on and they'll be older then. And the new young people won't want to vote for a party that'll reintroduce it?

Plus student loans have been about since the 1990s, so a write-off doesn't just influence young people.

I think tuition fees was a very big issue in this election but less in a "voting for my own benefit" thing. Rather, tuition fees are a very visible demonstration of the gap between the generations in terms of what they got. The older generation got free tuition and maintenance grants, the current one get huge debts. There's no way you can argue that's fair, it's just not a position that works. You can argue we can no longer afford it, but you can't argue it's fair. 

The other ways that gap manifests: rental economy vs house ownership, job security etc. are a lot harder to get your head around and far less stark in the differential.

So the tuition fees thing becomes more than just that. It becomes "vote for us if you want fairness" and everyone wants to think they want things to be fair.

As a student, I think tuition fees are ridiculous, but abolition is just as ridiculous as a premise, an independent commission said to the Blair government, if we wanted to maintain the high standards of teaching etc at university, then students will have to pay. I for one have seen my University, put extra resources into every department, research and Development, facilities etc. Though tuition fees are too high, I appreciate that my uni and many others continue to invest in order to maintain exceptionally high standards. 

As for being fair, yes we all want fairness, but it is looking at whether or not Corbyn's plan would 1. guarantee fairness without unintended consequences and 2. whether or not the fairness you are suggesting is attainable in the world we live in today. From what i researched, Corbyn's plans had huge economic consequences and was in a term "a wish list", and his Brexit and foreign policy weak, he may want to try and make things better, but I and many young people are ready to work hard and grind away to succeed in this economy, which is still possible despite those those who suggest it isn't.   

[jonodillieono]

I'm a young person and I didn't vote labour cause of tuition fees. I voted labour because I'm not a c**t. c**ts vote for the tories

[babyblade41]

3 minutes ago, jonodillieono said:

I'm a young person and I didn't vote labour cause of tuition fees. I voted labour because I'm not a c**t. c**ts vote for the tories

that's a highly intelligent comment 

[DeanoL]

 

 

34 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

It would be good to see, but I'd rather not declare policies to encourage the younger voters just to get votes if the policy that entices will not be financially viable .

I'm not sure who voted for what but if there was a high proportion of young voters agreeing to the free uni etc then not possible to carry it out then you have lost those voters for good.

"Financially viable" is a tricky one though. You can always take from somewhere to give elsewhere. There's a reason the pensions triple lock has remained over the past decade while tuition fees have gone up and up. If the elderly didn't vote and young people always did you'd have seen the exact opposite. 

32 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

(obviously, with free uni not coming via this election it'll still be able to be offered next time, but if it ever does get delivered that particular motivator goes away).

Not if the Tories want to re-introduce fees.

The thing about young people though is they get older. The young people voting Labour now will not be the same young people whose votes might be needed in five years time. The biggest problem the Tories are facing is that when we talked about young people voting in elections, we used to mean under 25s. These days we mean under 35s. These days the policies that appeal to 35 -year-olds are more likely to be those that also appeal to 20-year-olds, not 50-year-olds. There's a generational divide rather than an age gap, and as that "younger" generation get older the numbers of the older generation fall. People just aren't transitioning from youthful Labour voters to middle-age Tories like they are meant to.

[majormajormajor]

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/06/10/britain-the-end-of-a-fantasy/

Excellent run-down of the state of affairs.

[Teddington]

17 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

that's a highly intelligent comment 

On multiple levels

 

He doesn't even realise what an idiot he looks.

[Spindles]

[PretentiousThinkpiece]

hi guys, just popping into this thread to say that i did not vote tory

[jonodillieono]

18 minutes ago, Teddington said:

On multiple levels

 

He doesn't even realise what an idiot he looks.

Rather be an idiot than a c**t