Glastonbury and Politics

[Tigerdragon]

55 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

greater poverty.

There's no country that could lose the equivalent of £1,200 for every man woman and child and not feel it - heavily, very very heavily. It's more than the cost of all of Scottish education.

It would be, in effect, those 'leftists' choosing to impose Greek-style austerity on themselves, which certainly isn't doing the poorest any favours. As is always the case, it'lll be the poorest who carry that burden the heaviest.

Independence is neither left or right. Imposing poverty on yourself for indy is also neither left or right - but the decision on how to handle it will very definitely be right-ist. Take your pick from which of the following those cuts will fall on: benefits, the NHS, education, pensions, other public services.

The one choice not on offer is avoiding it. There's no escaping financial reality.

And the SNP know it even if their voters don't - which is why they didn't ask for Scotland to self-fund in their Scotland Act amendment that they (falsely) claim was a demand to self-fund. It was - as th3e text makes clear - a demand that the UK keeps on sending them money.

I more meant that nationalism tends towards racism, isolationism and xenophobia in the end, no matter where on the spectrum the nationalists choose to stand. Once the issue of sovereignty is solved, nationalism becomes about protecting it from any (imaginary) threats it can conjure. 

But agreed that this dissonance between what the anti-austerity SNP seem to stand for, and what their policy has been/resulted in is also very troubling, especially in contrast to much better thought out anti-austerity movements elsewhere in Europe.

[DeanoL]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

:I'm not sure about the PR thing.

Before 2010 I'd have said there was definitely a majority in favour, but I think coalition changed that. One thing that came very strongly from the public about that coalition was that the public dislike voting in favour of something but the party not following thru on it - which all coalitions will cause by the very fact of coalition compromises. The opposite also applies, that people dislike govts that do things they didn't say they would.

That's a fair point. FPTP is designed to provide majority governments at the expense of representation. Maybe an argument along those lines wouldn't go down so well now as six years ago. But we've generally seen those campaigning for FPTP shy away from that idea in terms of other arguments.

Quote

 

As for the idea that only some are smart enough to understand the system? Pleeaaase! One of the most foolish ideas in British politics is that sort of self-refined righteousness. I don't really disagree with the idea there's a lot of political ignorance, but there's absolutely nothing to indicate that any ignorance isn't equally spread around amongst the parties in the same proportions as any informed political opinion might be.

People think how they think, and the idea that your view isn't winning out because others aren't as smart is a flawed one. People need to be won over with ideas they'll accept. They won't be won over by the suggestion they're stupid.

 

It's not about stupidity. It's just about the argument being made correctly and understandably. You're correct that's it's equally spread, I just don't see the electoral system as a party political issue. If it is then there's no hope because neither Labour or Conservative would benefit from it. I'm sure there are as many supporters of each party that don't get the implications of FPTP. My argument is just that a majority of them would favour PR if they did.

The AV referendum is the best example I can think of for this. Do you truly think that what happened there is that people developed a solid understanding of each proposed system and it's merits and flaws, and picked the one they preferred? Wasn't the leading cry of the FPTP campaign "one person, one vote" with an argument that AV would give some people two votes, and some people one? Which sounds impressive and is technically correct but isn't the reality of how it works. It was a misdirection, a half truth designed to sound good. That the other side utterly failed to sensibly message against that claim, or to put out a solid, consistent message of their own is a huge part of why they failed so miserably.

But that referendum was won (at least to such a degree) on strength of message, not strength of argument.

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

every vote for a losing idea is always wasted, it has no impact. That doesn't change with PR. There's still a losing side who don't get their way.

We might get a change with some policies via PR, but don't go fooling yourself by thinking that every vote counts under PR. It doesn't.

Depends on if you see your vote counting as needing a voice in government or simply a voice in parliament. And we're not quite at the point yet where it's "get a majority government and the cabinet do whatever they want". With small majorities (coalition or otherwise) then controversial policies are difficult, you need to whip every single vote, the backbenchers don't have to vote with the government (and yes - PR lists would probably mean less rebellious backbenchers, which is a downside), but there's a balance there. Under PR, my vote would directly correspond to an MP (rounding errors aside). And that MP would have a vote on every single policy the government enact. There's a direct line there.

[GoonerRob]

1 hour ago, snorton82 said:

As opposed to Labour's part in the highly fruitful war on terror? How did that turn out? How many civilians lived happily every after due to that one? Take off the blinkers for a second

Like the tories didn't whole heartedly support this at the time?  

Corbyn voted against... 

[bamber]

Boris Johnson, Micheal Gove, IDS, Hunt, Gidion, Cameron, if you want those those c*nts running this beautiful country, take a long hard look at yourself.

[RichardWaller]

4 minutes ago, bamber said:

Boris Johnson, Micheal Gove, IDS, Hunt, Gidion, Cameron, if you want those those c*nts running this beautiful country, take a long hard look at yourself.

Aww I've used up my upvotes for today.

[emmett milbarge]

6 minutes ago, bamber said:

Boris Johnson, Micheal Gove, IDS, Hunt, Gidion, Cameron, if you want those those c*nts running this beautiful country, take a long hard look at yourself.

You missed off Teresa May!

[RichardWaller]

1 minute ago, emmett milbarge said:

You missed off Teresa May!

And spelled ruining wrong 

[bamber]

2 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

And spelled ruining wrong 

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, emmett milbarge said:

You missed off Teresa May!

Our next Prime Minister.

Compared to Boris or Gove that's a good thing, compared to slimy George it's less clear.

But it'll still be tory scum. :(

 

[bamber]

5 minutes ago, emmett milbarge said:

You missed off Teresa May!

I draw the line at calling any woman a c*nt, but yes, not a nice person. It irks me to think I'm on her side on June 23'd, she wants to scrap European human rights laws, why would anybody want to do that?

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Can I ask why? They're no more left than Blair was. They're very solidly middle-ground.

Scotland had a chance this month to vote for left policies, and utterly rejected them. Instead they've voted for a party which claimed itself as anti-austerity, yet with the powers to address tory austerity has decided that tory austerity is what it will implement.

I'll not claim to be the most political, and will defer to greater knowledge, but the SNPs stance on Trident, the NHS and creating affordable housing are things I get behind. They are labour policies, but labour has been hijacked around me....

My local labour MPs are crooks or worse. I live in Heywood and Middleton ward. I voted labour, but that was to keep the BNP out. My grandma lives in neighbouring Rochdale with Simon "why should I agree with Left wing policies*?" Danzcuk as her labour MP.

*A direct quote

Edited May 26, 2016 by FuzzyDunlop

[RichardWaller]

1 minute ago, bamber said:

I draw the line at calling any woman a c*nt, but yes, not a nice person. It irks me to think I'm on her side on June 23'd, she wants to scrap European human rights laws, why would anybody want to do that?

 

Suppose the simple answer is she hates humans. 

[bamber]

3 minutes ago, FuzzyDunlop said:

I'll not claim to be the most political, and will defer to greater knowledge, but the SNPs stance on Trident, the NHS and creating affordable housing are things I get behind. They are labour policies, but labour has been hijacked around me....

My local labour MPs are crooks or worse. I live in Heywood and Middleton ward. I voted labour, but that was to keep the BNP out. My grandma lives in neighbouring Rochdale with Simon "why should I agree with Left wing policies*?" Danzcuk as her labour MP.

Some very applaudable policies from the SNP there, but I'm sorry, Nationalism is deathly poison. That is why we have rugby.In all other situations, especially politics, it is utterly inappropriate.

[emmett milbarge]

12 minutes ago, bamber said:

I draw the line at calling any woman a c*nt, but yes, not a nice person. It irks me to think I'm on her side on June 23'd, she wants to scrap European human rights laws, why would anybody want to do that?

 

So they can carry on gathering data on what we view on the internet, they don't want the masses being educated, don't get me started on censorship and freedom of speech.

[Spindles]

Beautifully put Bamber.

[eFestivals]

20 minutes ago, FuzzyDunlop said:

I'll not claim to be the most political, and will defer to greater knowledge, but the SNPs stance on Trident, the NHS and creating affordable housing are things I get behind. They are labour policies, but labour has been hijacked around me..

Trident is neither left or right.

Labour plan to raise taxes to spend on stuff like the NHS and housing.

The SNP have just chosen to not raise taxes so they cannot do extra with the NHS or state-funded housing.

Meanwhile, the SNP stances of indy and self-funding would see Scottish public services decimated far worse than the tories will do.

 

Quote

My local labour MPs are crooks or worse. I live in Heywood and Middleton ward. I voted labour, but that was to keep the BNP out. My grandma lives in neighbouring Rochdale with Simon "why should I agree with Left wing policies*?" Danzcuk as her labour MP.

*A direct quote

You need to realise that in politics principles are worthless without the power to act on them.

The 'conflict' within the Labour party at present isn't because some are "red tories", it's because those people recognise what is required to have the public's support in order to be elected.

Personally I'm waaay to the left of Corbyn, but that doesn't stop me knowing that most of the country are nowhere near to that, and that getting the required support will need to recognise that rather than pursuing an ideological line.

Edited May 26, 2016 by eFestivals

[bamber]

13 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Personally I'm waaay to the left of Corbyn,

Not so if I have read your leanings right.

[kh24]

36 minutes ago, FuzzyDunlop said:

I'll not claim to be the most political, and will defer to greater knowledge, but the SNPs stance on Trident, the NHS and creating affordable housing are things I get behind. They are labour policies, but labour has been hijacked around me....

My local labour MPs are crooks or worse. I live in Heywood and Middleton ward. I voted labour, but that was to keep the BNP out. My grandma lives in neighbouring Rochdale with Simon "why should I agree with Left wing policies*?" Danzcuk as her labour MP.

*A direct quote

Out of the Greater Manchester Labour MPs, I've generally rated McInnes quite well - a lifelong career in the NHS and committed union campaigning. She herself has allegedly been subject to some nastiness from her neighbouring constituency's office I think which is grim. Speaking of which, I have relatives living in Rochdale too though and I really sympathise with anyone who has Danczuk as an MP. What makes it all the more terrible is that Rochdale really deserves (and desperately needs) better.    

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, bamber said:

Not so if I have read your leanings right.

Sorry?

Me pointing out that Corbyn is a shit leader says naff all about my political leanings. Me stating my belief that Corbyn is unelectable by the country (unless he gets very lucky via a massive tory fuck-up) says naff all about my political leanings. Me saying that the bills have to be paid says naff all about my political leanings.

What have you read that you think doesn't stand up to my claim of myself?

[Jamie D]

I'm not (currently) a Corbyn supporter but I've got a soft spot for him and think he's very good for British politics. Before Labour and the Conservatives were more or less exactly the same. Now Labour's moving more to the left we've at least got an actual choice between the two main parties.

Yeah they might be less electable but I'd rather that than more electable but exactly the same as the Tories.

Anyway,  I wonder if it would be like if Question Time was broadcast from the site on the Thursday? I think I'd go but they might have a job controlling the audience!

[bamber]

45 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Sorry?

Me pointing out that Corbyn is a shit leader says naff all about my political leanings. Me stating my belief that Corbyn is unelectable by the country (unless he gets very lucky via a massive tory fuck-up) says naff all about my political leanings. Me saying that the bills have to be paid says naff all about my political leanings.

What have you read that you think doesn't stand up to my claim of myself?

Errm? I did not say any of that!I have read a lot of your posts and I'm just saying you/me might be better off supporting Corbyn . He is no Foot and is more of a socialist than anyone else on offer. 2020 is a long way off, things change.

[bamber]

The left implodes again?

[snorton82]

You cant beat lefty whack-jobs 

[bamber]

 

[the wonderwhy]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Our next Prime Minister.

Compared to Boris or Gove that's a good thing, compared to slimy George it's less clear.

But it'll still be tory scum.

 

You reckon? I'd put money on it being Boris myself, especially if we do vote to leave...