Glastonbury and Politics

[emmett milbarge]

12 hours ago, emilyboris said:

I agree that having the Lib Dems in the coalition was more positive than a Tory majority, but the party didn't really make enough effort-or at least were extremely unsuccessful in doing so-to sell themselves as the people saving us from the Tories. It just looked like they were chumming up. While I acknowledge this, I have a strong dislike of the Lib Dems. It's easy to paint the rise in tuition fees as inevitable, but the complete betrayal of this generation (I started university in the first year of triple fees) not only damaged faith in the Lib Dems themselves, but thousands of young people's faith in politicians. Nick Clegg went out of his way to make himself the friend of the student, and repaid their votes by breaking his promise to them (okay, the majority of those affected weren't eligible to vote). Struggle to see them regaining any significant vote from people of my age any time soon.

That website's really good, they're doing great work, recommend everyone uses it. 

I think the value we can attach to Cameron saying he's a fan of something is pretty much nothing by this point! I think if we had to discard all music made by horrible obnoxious people, we'd be left with a lot of pretty bland music-though I stand by rejecting music I might like that is produced by people with views I find totally abhorrent. 

just curious after going through the website what party did it select for you?

[CHRLY]

38 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

It's sad how wide that belief is, I've subscribed to it to a point but over the past couple of years I've started to resent voting for a party that I don't believe represents me and I do see as the lesser of two evils. I just don't think, as a party, Labour are that ambitious or true to their roots anymore. I think they've grown complacent and are dependent on the "not Tory" vote rather than earning votes themselves. May be a waste, but I've started voting for Green rather than against Tories. British politics needs some hope, cynicism is hardly engaging is it?

No, it isn't. But I still prefer some of what I want rather than none, and Labour are the only party that offer that. And anywhow, The Greens have actually engaged me far less than Labour thus far. Maybe if they came out with a manifesto that's actually economically sound I'd consider them.

[eFestivals]

14 hours ago, DeanoL said:

I think the general public want PR. The problem is the general public think we already have it. The mistake people make is assuming people understand first past the post and the U.K. Electoral system. The majority vote for the leader of the party they like most on TV and assume the system must be fair and that their vote counts, even if they don't understand it. They have faith in the current system. Because most people can't comprehend the idea that it could be as broken as it is.

The path to PR starts with tearing down that faith. I swear all the AV referendum told us is that people would prefer PR to AV. After all, everyone was very much in favour of "one person, one vote" which the "no" campaign pushed.

I'm fairly sure if you explained FPTP and PR and told people to pick the one they wanted, with no preconceptions, PR would win by a landslide.

:I'm not sure about the PR thing.

Before 2010 I'd have said there was definitely a majority in favour, but I think coalition changed that. One thing that came very strongly from the public about that coalition was that the public dislike voting in favour of something but the party not following thru on it - which all coalitions will cause by the very fact of coalition compromises. The opposite also applies, that people dislike govts that do things they didn't say they would.

The result in 2015 had a heavy effect from that too I reckon - after all, people don't punish a party for being too right wing by voting for a party further to the right, as happened with the libdems. That 2015 result had people vote for the certainty of what they'd get from the tories in preference to the uncertainty they'd get from a Labour/SNP coalition (which the SNP very deliberately helped to stir, too).

As for the idea that only some are smart enough to understand the system? Pleeaaase! One of the most foolish ideas in British politics is that sort of self-refined righteousness. I don't really disagree with the idea there's a lot of political ignorance, but there's absolutely nothing to indicate that any ignorance isn't equally spread around amongst the parties in the same proportions as any informed political opinion might be.

People think how they think, and the idea that your view isn't winning out because others aren't as smart is a flawed one. People need to be won over with ideas they'll accept. They won't be won over by the suggestion they're stupid.

[eFestivals]

12 hours ago, DeanoL said:

But they didn't get the "every vote past the post is wasted" concept.

every vote for a losing idea is always wasted, it has no impact. That doesn't change with PR. There's still a losing side who don't get their way.

We might get a change with some policies via PR, but don't go fooling yourself by thinking that every vote counts under PR. It doesn't.

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, FuzzyDunlop said:

I'm a lefty. If the SNP put up candidates around here, I'd vote for them.

Can I ask why? They're no more left than Blair was. They're very solidly middle-ground.

Scotland had a chance this month to vote for left policies, and utterly rejected them. Instead they've voted for a party which claimed itself as anti-austerity, yet with the powers to address tory austerity has decided that tory austerity is what it will implement.

[clarkete]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

every vote for a losing idea is always wasted, it has no impact. That doesn't change with PR. There's still a losing side who don't get their way.

We might get a change with some policies via PR, but don't go fooling yourself by thinking that every vote counts under PR. It doesn't.

It's not about not having any wasted votes, it's about having representation reflecting the votes of the majority, rather than the minority.

As for @DeanoL saying "They have faith in the current system", I think the opposite is true, plenty of people don't vote as they believe "they're all the same/it doesn't make a difference".  Some of those would vote none of the above or vote for the kippers/green/whatever

[abeeshark]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Can I ask why? They're no more left than Blair was. They're very solidly middle-ground.

Scotland had a chance this month to vote for left policies, and utterly rejected them. Instead they've voted for a party which claimed itself as anti-austerity, yet with the powers to address tory austerity has decided that tory austerity is what it will implement.

Seriously? That is absurd. The SNP are left of centre in ground Blair never occupied.

[snorton82]

Labour are pretty much unelectable at the minute and with no other serious contender the Tories are the best option to run the country at present....that's the reality of it.

[RichardWaller]

44 minutes ago, CHRLY said:

No, it isn't. But I still prefer some of what I want rather than none, and Labour are the only party that offer that. And anywhow, The Greens have actually engaged me far less than Labour thus far. Maybe if they came out with a manifesto that's actually economically sound I'd consider them.

Each to their own who gets engaged and each to their own who they trust. I like some Green ideas, and I like some Labour ideas too but when they lay claim to being the party that stands up for people and goes on to abstain like they have done it's hard to take them seriously. That's a popular attack though, about parties' manifestos not being economically sound as if that's the be all end all and we can ignore all other party failings, liars and borderline psychopaths. Greens haven't really been in much of a position to demonstrate that though, maybe they'll be different.

I do fear for the future of the Labour Party, it's looking quite reminiscent of what happened to Pasok in Greece to me.

Edited May 26, 2016 by RichardWaller

[RichardWaller]

10 minutes ago, snorton82 said:

Labour are pretty much unelectable at the minute and with no other serious contender the Tories are the best option to run the country at present....that's the reality of it.

Lol not a country I want to live in.

[eFestivals]

27 minutes ago, abeeshark said:

Seriously? That is absurd. The SNP are left of centre in ground Blair never occupied.

Are they? How and where?

How does willingly implementing tory austerity as they are make them the anti-austerity party?

How does supporting the council tax make them progressive?

Etc, etc, etc.

They're the do nothing party, in case thery upset anyone by doing something - which is less bottle than Blair had.

In the recent Scottish elections, of the 5 main parties there, the SNP policies are the closest to the tories. There's no escaping that fact.

[Mezhyp1]

2 hours ago, FuzzyDunlop said:

I'm a lefty. If the SNP put up candidates around here, I'd vote for them.

They don't as I live in England so -Monster Raving Loony.

The left-ism of the SNP is definitely up for debate i think, they're most definitely verging towards being more central than anything. Scottish politics is going to end up more and more like Nothern Irish politics as the demise of the now laughable Scottish Labour Party worsens, there's too much of a straight fight out between independence and union parties up here for anything else to be taken massively seriously. Though it is encouraging to see a rise in Scottish Greens, as I felt SNP have became unelectable now, they are the only viable solution 

[russycarps]

1 hour ago, ripcurl85 said:

 

What I do feel is slightly disingenuous, both at the festival and in society generally, is that conservatives are viewed as being soulless, bigoted and selfish individuals.      

I think this is probably because people who vote tory are soulless, bigoted and selfish individuals.

 

[clarkete]

44 minutes ago, snorton82 said:

Labour are pretty much unelectable at the minute and with no other serious contender the Tories are the best option to run the country into the ground at present....that's the reality of it.

There, fixed that for you.

Just for starters NHS, Education, IDS and the numerous deaths via the welfare state.  Let alone Yemen and supporting other foreign interventions that have resulted in deaths and displacements of civilians.

[Tigerdragon]

Those supporting the Scottish nationalist party on account of their left-wing politics might want to wonder what would happen after the goal of achieving Scottish independence was reached. Nationalism never seems to be the friendliest ideology, and I think the SNP, at its logical endpoint, would be a far from progressive force.

[snorton82]

13 minutes ago, clarkete said:

There, fixed that for you.

Just for starters NHS, Education, IDS and the numerous deaths via the welfare state.  Let alone Yemen and supporting other foreign interventions that have resulted in deaths and displacements of civilians.

As opposed to Labour's part in the highly fruitful war on terror? How did that turn out? How many civilians lived happily every after due to that one? Take off the blinkers for a second

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, Tigerdragon said:

Those supporting the Scottish nationalist party on account of their left-wing politics might want to wonder what would happen after the goal of achieving Scottish independence was reached.

greater poverty.

There's no country that could lose the equivalent of £1,200 for every man woman and child and not feel it - heavily, very very heavily. It's more than the cost of all of Scottish education.

It would be, in effect, those 'leftists' choosing to impose Greek-style austerity on themselves, which certainly isn't doing the poorest any favours. As is always the case, it'lll be the poorest who carry that burden the heaviest.

Independence is neither left or right. Imposing poverty on yourself for indy is also neither left or right - but the decision on how to handle it will very definitely be right-ist. Take your pick from which of the following those cuts will fall on: benefits, the NHS, education, pensions, other public services.

The one choice not on offer is avoiding it. There's no escaping financial reality.

And the SNP know it even if their voters don't - which is why they didn't ask for Scotland to self-fund in their Scotland Act amendment that they (falsely) claim was a demand to self-fund. It was - as th3e text makes clear - a demand that the UK keeps on sending them money.

[clarkete]

2 minutes ago, snorton82 said:

As opposed to Labour's part in the highly fruitful war on terror? How did that turn out? How many civilians lived happily every after due to that one? Take off the blinkers for a second

I went to London along with a million others to politely suggest to the war criminal formerly known as Blair that we thought it would end in tears, unfortunately he thought as he still does that he knew best.

That doesn't mean that putting ministers in charge of departments who had previously declared they wished to dismantle or privatise them scares the ***t out of me - ie. *unt and Whittingdale.  Don't know if Morgan had declared her agenda previously, but it's certainly clear.

[bamber]

Conservatives 4.88% Fuck you, you Greedy, selfish bastards. Fuck you. Fuck off out of Glastonbury, you Fuckers.

[the wonderwhy]

I've taken the poll literally and picked the Green's as they appear to be the party largely closest to my beliefs (and I keep getting told this by the websites like the one posted earlier) but I don't buy into the whole membership/supporting a party thing - I literally chose the night before an election and have voted Labour/Lib Dems/Greens before. 

I'm really not a fan of the current political system - whether that comes from being a 'disenfranchised youth' or just studying journalism for three years and therefore criticizing everything I dunno. I read a really interesting article the other day about how young people see themselves as 'global citizens' which, however pretentious that sounds, I found myself massively agreeing with. I think we're bowing to American influence too much and becoming way too isolationist, which is the complete opposite to the way the world is going. We focus too much on policies that affect the 'hard working family' (probably my most hated phrase in politics) and not the world. But I do appreciate I'm in the minority on that viewpoint. 

[russycarps]

1 hour ago, snorton82 said:

Labour are pretty much unelectable at the minute and with no other serious contender the Tories are the best option to run the country at present....that's the reality of it.

You're a thick c**t....that's the reality of it.

[RichardWaller]

2 minutes ago, MattDavies__ said:

I've taken the poll literally and picked the Green's as they appear to be the party largely closest to my beliefs (and I keep getting told this by the websites like the one posted earlier) but I don't buy into the whole membership/supporting a party thing - I literally chose the night before an election and have voted Labour/Lib Dems/Greens before. 

I'm really not a fan of the current political system - whether that comes from being a 'disenfranchised youth' or just studying journalism for three years and therefore criticizing everything I dunno. I read a really interesting article the other day about how young people see themselves as 'global citizens' which, however pretentious that sounds, I found myself massively agreeing with. I think we're bowing to American influence too much and becoming way too isolationist, which is the complete opposite to the way the world is going. We focus too much on policies that affect the 'hard working family' (probably my most hated phrase in politics) and not the world. But I do appreciate I'm in the minority on that viewpoint. 

I've noticed a few people on this thread saying about which parties they've voted for in the past and I think that's a positive thing, whether it actually does or not I think it ought to prevent complacency, which I think is a big problem in British politics because politicians just aren't accountable enough. I wonder if a different voting system would mean different voting patterns. I think the main parties to an extent do rely upon tribal voters but I wonder if the tribal voter is a dying breed.

I like that, 'global citizens'. In a way I find it a bit weird that it's taken this long for that attitude to be taking off at all, seeing as we've absorbed so much from other cultures in well, everything really. I think the access to information that people have now must far outstrip any kind of access our parents had, but I suppose with that you're also going to get exposed to lies and propaganda... I hope people are getting better at recognising the differences. 

[grumpyhack]

13 minutes ago, MattDavies__ said:

I've taken the poll literally and picked the Green's as they appear to be the party largely closest to my beliefs (and I keep getting told this by the websites like the one posted earlier) but I don't buy into the whole membership/supporting a party thing - I literally chose the night before an election and have voted Labour/Lib Dems/Greens before. 

I'm really not a fan of the current political system - whether that comes from being a 'disenfranchised youth' or just studying journalism for three years and therefore criticizing everything I dunno. I read a really interesting article the other day about how young people see themselves as 'global citizens' which, however pretentious that sounds, I found myself massively agreeing with. I think we're bowing to American influence too much and becoming way too isolationist, which is the complete opposite to the way the world is going. We focus too much on policies that affect the 'hard working family' (probably my most hated phrase in politics) and not the world. But I do appreciate I'm in the minority on that viewpoint. 

Don't give up Matt.  Your job as a journalist (assuming you become one following your studies) is to try to provide people with clear information that will, hopefully, help them make informed choices and decisions.

As you say, there is a contradiction between us having greater opportunities than ever to be aware of what is happening around the world thanks to Internet news and websites and the increasing isolationist approaches being championed by some.

Whether we like it or not we do now live in a global economy and cannot separate what happens in our country from what is happening on the other side of the world.  A classic example would be the future of steel making and jobs in Port Talbot which is being determined by the world price of steel, heavily influenced by Chinese output and decisions taken by Tata in India.

[emmett milbarge]

There's only one thing I agree with Cameron, that is to stay in the EU, I do not agree that we should cut funding for the disabled, I fear for privatization of the NHS, The snoopers charter is scary, I love how the tories do NOT value our privacy, however when the panama papers were leaked and Cameron's dad was in them, calls from no10 that this was a private matter!!, Teresa May is a very worrying figure who does not want us to have a voice or privacy and sees most of us as an inconvenience,  I could go on

[bamber]

Neil Young flirted with Ronald Reagan, what the fuck was that all about? Love Neil,  he's over that now (obligatory video)