Glastonbury and Politics

[bamber]

You cant beat whacky left-jobs. Socialist till I die.

[Jamie D]

14 minutes ago, MattDavies__ said:

You reckon? I'd put money on it being Boris myself, especially if we do vote to leave... 

For sure. Vote leave and you're voting to change direction in to the unknown with this man at the wheel

[jimmillen]

Oh dear, politics...

Probably in the minority on this, but I vote on the basis of - will my vote count?  Does the person/party I'm voting for have a realistic chance of winning?  If they win, are they competent to govern?  Lastly - do I agree with their policies and philosophy?  In that order of importance.

That's a long way from the "voting your conscience" approach, but what point electing someone you agree with entirely, if they're incapable of actually making their plans reality?  

Party politics is a deeply bizarre way to make our decisions in today's day & age.  Does anyone really support everything that a party proposes?  The terms left or right wing are themselves from the 18th century FFS; how can they possibly represent everything of today's world in terms of economics, social attitudes, defence, welfare, drug policy...?

Don't think we help ourselves with wildly optimistic views on what government really can achieve - hopes that are of course raised by the politicians themselves, readily supported by the media.  The reality is that any party in opposition, should they come to power, won't be able to implement all their policies - or will do things that weren't in the manifesto.  Of course they will!  They're only human!  Most of the challenges facing our society are really really complicated & difficult with no simple solutions - believe it or not, we've already solved most of the easy ones!

Most of all I hate what party politics does to us as human beings.  It makes it about us versus them.  It means we can call people vile names and dehumanise them based on who they vote for.  It's a throwback to all that is vile in human nature.  In 2016, aren't we better than this?

[jeffie]

6 hours ago, FuzzyDunlop said:

I'm a lefty. If the SNP put up candidates around here, I'd vote for them.

They don't as I live in England so -Monster Raving Loony.

SNP aren't left wing though.

[eFestivals]

30 minutes ago, bamber said:

He is no Foot and is more of a socialist than anyone else on offer.

If he were Foot, things would be better.

[bamber]

1 minute ago, jimmillen said:

Oh dear, politics...

Probably in the minority on this, but I vote on the basis of - will my vote count?  Does the person/party I'm voting for have a realistic chance of winning?  If they win, are they competent to govern?  Lastly - do I agree with their policies and philosophy?  In that order of importance.

That's a long way from the "voting your conscience" approach, but what point electing someone you agree with entirely, if they're incapable of actually making their plans reality?  

Party politics is a deeply bizarre way to make our decisions in today's day & age.  Does anyone really support everything that a party proposes?  The terms left or right wing are themselves from the 18th century FFS; how can they possibly represent everything of today's world in terms of economics, social attitudes, defence, welfare, drug policy...?

Don't think we help ourselves with wildly optimistic views on what government really can achieve - hopes that are of course raised by the politicians themselves, readily supported by the media.  The reality is that any party in opposition, should they come to power, won't be able to implement all their policies - or will do things that weren't in the manifesto.  Of course they will!  They're only human!  Most of the challenges facing our society are really really complicated & difficult with no simple solutions - believe it or not, we've already solved most of the easy ones!

Most of all I hate what party politics does to us as human beings.  It makes it about us versus them.  It means we can call people vile names and dehumanise them based on who they vote for.  It's a throwback to all that is vile in human nature.  In 2016, aren't we better than this?

Voting with your conscience is all that matters. Vote for the candidate who is most aligned with with your socialist beliefs. That is all.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, bamber said:

Voting with your conscience is all that matters. Vote for the candidate who is most aligned with with your socialist beliefs. That is all.

 

What it really pans out as being is a vote for the least objectionable candidate or party.

It's how each of us measure the 'objectionable' bit that makes all the difference..

[bamber]

4 minutes ago, jeffie said:

SNP aren't left wing though.

Very debatable/wrong Left leaning Nationalism in Scotland and Wales threatens a Socialist consensus in the UK more than anything.

[jeffie]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

What it really pans out as being is a vote for the least objectionable candidate or party.

It's how each of us measure the 'objectionable' bit that makes all the difference..

Doesn't that then support the case for PR though?

[bamber]

Just now, jeffie said:

Doesn't that then support the case for PR though?

We had a vote on PR if you remember? The tiny turnout on that rejected it. We live with what we have.

[Vacant0]

2 minutes ago, bamber said:

We had a vote on PR if you remember? The tiny turnout on that rejected it. We live with what we have.

We had a vote on AV, not PR.

[bamber]

Just now, Vacant0 said:

We had a vote on AV, not PR.

AV or PR the general public was not interested.

[jeffie]

We don't live with what we have.

If we did that the Tories would never get booted out.  I so wish they would.

We fight for change

[GlastoSimon]

5 minutes ago, bamber said:

Very debatable/wrong Left leaning Nationalism in Scotland and Wales threatens a Socialist consensus in the UK more than anything.

Spending my time in between Cardiff and Bristol, the elections in May were more interesting than in other places I think. The nationalist movement in Scotland has certainly had an impact in Wales. The papers were encouraging people to vote Plaid instead of Labour, and in most places (aside from where Leanne Wood stood I believe, Rhondda?), the voters rejected those ideas. But there's certainly growing support for nationalism in Wales influenced by the Scots.

Meanwhile, in more bizarre events, the mayoral vote in Bristol was attributed to Bristol wanting to 'rid itself of its racist past' by the Guardian  Sometimes you think the idea of a 'Westminster bubble' is stupid, then rubbish like that is spouted...

Whilst we've definitely moved away from a two-party system, which I thought was a good thing, it has its negatives. LOTS more voting in terms of self-interest rather than what is best for the country, and that's no truer than in Scotland re: the SNP. 

[bamber]

17 minutes ago, jeffie said:

We don't live with what we have.

If we did that the Tories would never get booted out.  I so wish they would.

We fight for change

We persuade our friends and family to vote Corbyn/Labour. Because it is the best of a bad choice.

Edited May 26, 2016 by bamber

[snorton82]

29 minutes ago, jimmillen said:

Oh dear, politics...

Probably in the minority on this, but I vote on the basis of - will my vote count?  Does the person/party I'm voting for have a realistic chance of winning?  If they win, are they competent to govern?  Lastly - do I agree with their policies and philosophy?  In that order of importance.

That's a long way from the "voting your conscience" approach, but what point electing someone you agree with entirely, if they're incapable of actually making their plans reality?  

Party politics is a deeply bizarre way to make our decisions in today's day & age.  Does anyone really support everything that a party proposes?  The terms left or right wing are themselves from the 18th century FFS; how can they possibly represent everything of today's world in terms of economics, social attitudes, defence, welfare, drug policy...?

Don't think we help ourselves with wildly optimistic views on what government really can achieve - hopes that are of course raised by the politicians themselves, readily supported by the media.  The reality is that any party in opposition, should they come to power, won't be able to implement all their policies - or will do things that weren't in the manifesto.  Of course they will!  They're only human!  Most of the challenges facing our society are really really complicated & difficult with no simple solutions - believe it or not, we've already solved most of the easy ones!

Most of all I hate what party politics does to us as human beings.  It makes it about us versus them.  It means we can call people vile names and dehumanise them based on who they vote for.  It's a throwback to all that is vile in human nature.  In 2016, aren't we better than this?

The only people who get offensive and call people vile names are Labour voters attacking Tories and trying to shame their voters....one of the reasons i'll probably never vote Labour again (as I used to).

 

In the aftermath of the last election the protests were pathetic. Middle class students rampaging through London desecrating war memorials and abusing anyone who dared to vote Tory. It was a democracy, deal with it.

 

The large minority of people who attack Tory voters vote Labour regardless. Policies don't mean anything, they are blinded by Thatcher hate and get sucked in by the 'Tories are evil scum' campaign and wont budge, ever.

 

Meanwhile people with any sense would vote for who they believe are better equipped to run the country at any given time, and that isn't Labour, and wont be for some time.

[bamber]

4 minutes ago, snorton82 said:

The only people who get offensive and call people vile names are Labour voters attacking Tories and trying to shame their voters....one of the reasons i'll probably never vote Labour again (as I used to).

 

In the aftermath of the last election the protests were pathetic. Middle class students rampaging through London desecrating war memorials and abusing anyone who dared to vote Tory. It was a democracy, deal with it.

 

The large minority of people who attack Tory voters vote Labour regardless. Policies don't mean anything, they are blinded by Thatcher hate and get sucked in by the 'Tories are evil scum' campaign and wont budge, ever.

 

Meanwhile people with any sense would vote for who they believe are better equipped to run the country at any given time, and that isn't Labour, and wont be for some time.

If you will never vote Labour again the you are buying into the culture of greed and selfishness. We are lost as a nation if most of us do that.

[Rose-Colored Boy]

2 hours ago, Jamie D said:

Before Corbyn Labour and the Conservatives were more or less exactly the same. 

...

Even on an economic level, a party who went into the last election committed to active wealth redistribution through introducing a mansion tax, abolishing the non-dom ridiculousness and increasing the top rate of tax to 50p in the pound is not the same as a party who promised to fund inheritance tax breaks by over-the-top cuts to welfare spending. And that's before you touch on the very different attitudes to the BBC, media regulation, education, sidelining the young, the NHS etc. Sorry but that just doesn't make sense.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Zac Quinn

[snorton82]

2 minutes ago, bamber said:

If you will never vote Labour again the you are buying into the culture of greed and selfishness. We are lost as a nation if most of us do that.

I would only begrudge voting for Labour again because a lot of their supporters just hurl abuse and protest about anything and everything and are always after something for nothing. They don't listen to reason.

Do I agree with everything the Tories do? God no, but at this moment in time, I would feel far safer under Cameron than I would under Corbyn. And that's what it boils down to at the end of the day. And its not down to greed, I am from a working class background and work 2 jobs, i'm not well off.

[eFestivals]

28 minutes ago, jeffie said:

Doesn't that then support the case for PR though?

Probably, if that's your bag.

I'd have PR in an instant despite me knowing it wouldn't deliver the sort of policies I'd prefer. I'm strongly a democrat (in part because nothing will work without the people on-side), and PR best matches my idea of democracy.

But every system has its flaws when you move from the theoretic and into how we as humans operate, so I wouldn't condemn someone for thinking that FPTP works better in the real world (tho it is better suited to a less-fragmented party system than we currently have).

Despite wanting it abolished, in the real world I end up feeling warmth for both the appointed and hereditary peers in the HoC, because the permanence of their post gives them an independence that list candidates under PR will never have.

[eFestivals]

33 minutes ago, bamber said:

AV or PR the general public was not interested.

AV was alright, but it wouldn't be my first choice.

 

[bamber]

1 minute ago, Zac Quinn said:

...

Even on an economic level, a party who went into the last election committed to active wealth redistribution through tax rises for the rich is not the same as a party who promised to fund inheritance tax breaks by ridiculous and over-the-top cuts to welfare spending. And that's before you touch on the very different attitudes to the BBC, NHS etc. Sorry but that just doesn't make sense.

Taxation of the rich is the total crux. Nobody should be allowed "earn" £8 million pa. Neoliberalism only has one song. "Massive Tax Cuts for the Rich"  A Fair distribution of wealth is Die Antwoord

 

[Yokel Again]

I wonder if there are as many closet tories on efests as there are in the 'real world'. Current poll status suggests so is my guess.

[Jamie D]

4 minutes ago, Zac Quinn said:

...

Even on an economic level, a party who went into the last election committed to active wealth redistribution through tax rises for the rich is not the same as a party who promised to fund inheritance tax breaks by ridiculous and over-the-top cuts to welfare spending. And that's before you touch on the very different attitudes to the BBC, NHS etc. Sorry but that just doesn't make sense.

Both were in favour of heavy austerity, unjust wars and conflict, TTIP and Trident. Of course you can point out differences but it doesn't change the fact they were both dancing on the same patch of land in the centre.

[ripcurl85]

3 minutes ago, Yokel Again said:

I wonder if there are as many closet tories on efests as there are in the 'real world'. Current poll status suggests so is my guess.

I actually got talking to a Scottish guy at last year's festival about the independence referendum and it turned out that he was a closet Conservative supporter so I would imagine that this is about as common as in the real world.