The Rise and Rise of UKIP

[kaosmark2]

because stopping them is not currently possible.

Got a flamethrower?

[eFestivals]

Got a flamethrower?

Exactly! The only workable solutions are not democratic solutions. Perhaps one day that'll change, but I'm not thinking it'll be anytime soon.

And so we have the rise of UKIP.

[kaosmark2]

Exactly! The only workable solutions are not democratic solutions. Perhaps one day that'll change, but I'm not thinking it'll be anytime soon.

And so we have the rise of UKIP.

If the people won't change the government, the government will change the people.

[LJS]

We would have ended up with a tory majority govt within a short time, via a second election and the country wanting an effective govt rather than a non-effective one.

I might dislike the voting choices of those who might vote tory, but I don't pretend they don't exist.

Blurring the lines between fact & guesswork again. Neil, I see

[grumpyhack]

Isn't the reality that the difference politicians in the UK make is pretty minimal?

We now live, like it or not, in a global economy. So what happens in the US, India, China, Russia etc directly impacts on our lives.

Similarly if a multi-national - take a car manufacturer like Ford or General Motors - decides to shut a plant in the UK and switch production to a country where costs are lower, then there's bugger all the UK government can do about it, apart from either offer bigger incentives to stay or set up unemployment task forces to help those who lose their jobs try to find other work.

I can't see that if we'd had a government of a different colour for the last few years that things would have been much different. They might have re-arranged the deck chairs on the Titanic to have slightly better views of the iceberg.

[eFestivals]

Blurring the lines between fact & guesswork again. Neil, I see

Then show me the people in this country (or even Scotland) that would give a different outcome to neoliberalism.

The simple fact is: you can't. And that's why we get neoliberalism, the "all tories" (which includes the SNP, in case that's passed you by) that your Scottish-based cohort said.

And because the vast majority of people are "all tories", they would vote for a an "all tories" solution - which in a 2010 context would have been a tory govt rather than no govt.

We might wish for a different outcome, but for all of the while the population are as they are we'll keep on getting that "all tories" outcome.

Edited December 12, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

At least we'd have known, with a clearer picture, who was making the decisions. I can't see how another election, (possibly) giving us a tory government would have much worse than what we've had.

Then you must believe that all politicians are as nasty as the tories - and which means that the politicians you yourself support are 100% identical to the ones you despise.

Either there is differences between political views or there isn't. Which is it?

Now, perhaps get back to reality, and recognise the differences that do exist, even tho in many instances those differences can be small?

[eFestivals]

Isn't the reality that the difference politicians in the UK make is pretty minimal?

It's the same everywhere. Politicians tap into the thinking of 'the people', and that's what they offer up. At most politicians nudge 'the people' in a direction; people only move when nudged if they wish to move.

Or are we *all* sheep, that only do what our masters tell us?

<cue the smug claiming that politicians do exert full control, but only of everyone else, not them, it's those others that are the sheep, but not them >

We now live, like it or not, in a global economy. So what happens in the US, India, China, Russia etc directly impacts on our lives.

Similarly if a multi-national - take a car manufacturer like Ford or General Motors - decides to shut a plant in the UK and switch production to a country where costs are lower, then there's bugger all the UK government can do about it, apart from either offer bigger incentives to stay or set up unemployment task forces to help those who lose their jobs try to find other work.

I can't see that if we'd had a government of a different colour for the last few years that things would have been much different. They might have re-arranged the deck chairs on the Titanic to have slightly better views of the iceberg.

I'd say you're pretty much spot on.

Real politicians have to work with reality, not empty dreams that can not be fulfilled no matter how much they might be wished for.

As much as i'd like a revolution, a fundamental change of society, I know it will not happen until that change has meaningful support - meaningful enough that it's not pretending 80+% of the population doesn't exist (as it the case for those dreams right now).

Either that, or we can have change that will fail - and then be reversed, and more-so - because it does not have support.

Edited December 12, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

anyway, last night's Question Time - Farage vs Brand. A damp squid.

I'd even go so far as to say that Farage got the better of it. It should have been Will Self, as he at least can string a coherent idea together.

[pink_triangle]

anyway, last night's Question Time - Farage vs Brand. A damp squid.

I'd even go so far as to say that Farage got the better of it. It should have been Will Self, as he at least can string a coherent idea together.

In a way I have to admire Brand. Im amazed how someone with so little substance, has managed to persuade so many people that he is one of the countries great minds

[eFestivals]

Just to be a twat it's a damp squib not squid.

A damp squid would cause no disappointment really.

- you've caught me sleepwalking.

[kaosmark2]

As much as i'd like a revolution, a fundamental change of society, I know it will not happen until that change has meaningful support - meaningful enough that it's not pretending 80+% of the population doesn't exist (as it the case for those dreams right now).

Either that, or we can have change that will fail - and then be reversed, and more-so - because it does not have support.

Just to emphasise, this exact reasoning is why those of us who want a revolution argue on the internet and try to change the minds of a few individuals rather than try and change the establishment.

[russycarps]

Question time is always a disappointment.

Farage was always going to get the better of brand unfortunately. I admire russell brand for what he's come out and said, but he looked a bit out of his depth last night.

I cant decide where I'd least like to live, kent or essex.

[eFestivals]

I was pleased with the tory on QT last night - yes, the tory.

Cos when they got onto Grammar schools, she managed to raise the point that rarely gets mentioned when people bang on about grammar schools - and that's that no one is alongside wanting grammar schools, also demanding that they bring back sub-standard education for 70% of kids.

When people say "bring back grammar schools" they always believe their own children would attend them - and yet for 70% of people that wouldn't be the case. 70% of kids would be forever deemed as sub-standard.

We need to knock down ideas designed to privilege a minority.

[russycarps]

It really has died a death. Used to enjoy watching it but its a real drag now.

It really is. Full of people just trying to get a round of applause. And that's the panel and the audience. Rubbish.

[kaosmark2]

When people say "bring back grammar schools" they always believe their own children would attend them - and yet for 70% of people that wouldn't be the case. 70% of kids would be forever deemed as sub-standard.

We need to knock down ideas designed to privilege a minority.

But if we don't declare people as less worthy, who'll do all the really important shit jobs that the privileged don't want to do?

[eFestivals]

But if we don't declare people as less worthy, who'll do all the really important shit jobs that the privileged don't want to do?

Hmmmm, when even the unprivileged don't want to do them, we're in trouble.

[kaosmark2]

Hmmmm, when even the unprivileged don't want to do them, we're in trouble.

Maybe - and this is just a crazy out-there ridiculous suggestion - the shit jobs should pay a wage that can be comfortably lived off.

[eFestivals]

Maybe - and this is just a crazy out-there ridiculous suggestion - the shit jobs should pay a wage that can be comfortably lived off.

Wow, who'd have thought of that one in a capitalist society?

Isn't it funny that the capitalists don't?

[bunique]

Brand was terrible. Whole panel were really. And audience not much better (and Canterbury being one of the more salubrious parts of Kent!).

[kaosmark2]

Wow, who'd have thought of that one in a capitalist society?

Isn't it funny that the capitalists don't?

It's not a capitalist society if the rich are "too big to fail". They're not capitalists, they're feudalists, hoping to keep the peasant masses ignorant.

[eFestivals]

Your communist utopia would pay almost everyone something no one could live off but at least everyone (almost) is equal right ?

No, my communist utopia would have the average wealth identical or greater to now. There's no reason why that couldn't be so.

But the reason it wouldn't be that utopia would be due to people like you, who wish to believe themselves as worth more than other humans, who'd fuck it all up for everyone else.

The truth hurts, eh?

[eFestivals]

It's not a capitalist society if the rich are "too big to fail". They're not capitalists, they're feudalists, hoping to keep the peasant masses ignorant.

which is what I was pointing out.

Tho, to be fair, it's not the capitalists that keep the peasants ignorant. The 'peasants' are perfectly able to manage their own ignorance for themselves.

[kaosmark2]

which is what I was pointing out.

Tho, to be fair, it's not the capitalists that keep the peasants ignorant. The 'peasants' are perfectly able to manage their own ignorance for themselves.

Well they throw a variety of targets for the "peasants" to blame and encourage the ignorance, but yes, they're not rigidly enforcing idiocy.

[viberunner]

Whenever Question Time disappoints remember it helped bring us this...