The Dirty Independence Question

[5co77ie]

Just out of interest this report they were bandying about in Parliament yesterday, the new one which says 35% of Scottish jobs rely on the EU - anyone know where it is, or even what it's called?

 

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

Would really love to understand what you would gain by having it then.

it's all about the dreams, about how Scots are super-special carey-sharey people who would never act harshly like Westminster does.

Except of course, when a country starts life spending 15% more than it might have in revenues and borrowings, the shit is going to hit the fan, and spread far and wide, and none of those dreams will happen.

[Comfy Bean]

18 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

and if you care to notice, no one is saying there's no basis for a vote from that.

Good, I agree with everyone.

They're saying that the people of Scotland don't want one (from polls), or that it's too soon after the last one &/or shouldn't happen till after brexit - neither of which are unreasonable reasons to say it shouldn't happen (as long as genuinely done for that reason).

I never said they were unreasonable reasons. In fact I have stated my own view on when it should be many times on here as you know. I accept though the game changing nature of May pushing the hard Brexit and the leave vote in general.

(note: that's not me backing those reasons, btw, I'm just recognising them)

Agreed. I recognise them also.

Meanwhile, will "Each and every one 32 out of 32" count for anything in the indyref?

Will you be happy for the capital of your independent nation to be against that independence?

Will Sturgeon give each area a veto over scexit, just as she demanded for the EU ref?

Unfortunately you have to reduce yourself to this or you are just not following things again. Should Scotland be an independent Country is the indy question we are talking about here. edinburgh is in Scotland. I realise you get all angry with the word " Country " being in there but that is just the way you work....well you and that one unionist lady on qt the other week. You`ve already confirmed she was no relation.

Or will she be Ms Double-standards?

She will hopefully be our First Minister. Most on all sides seem happy with how she delivered yesterdays news. She`s better respected by the unionists than Salmond was which might be worth a couple of votes. I realise you disagree and think she`ll bottle it.

 

[Comfy Bean]

17 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

Completely agree about Scexit - I will only write it out of laziness and never say it out loud.

It`s a new one on me - stop being so lazy 

A quick FYI - I voted remain and my country/area of NE Herts voted remain too.

We voted the same way mate. You`d better not go calling it your Country round these parts although it seems perfectly reasonable to me. I suppose if you vote Tory ( or me me me Tory as Neil calls you ) then you can`t really complain about May taking the hard brexit route. Well you can I suppose by not voting for them in the future.

The toys out of the pram comment was on the timing of the referendum. 

Fair enough. It`s not as sudden as you seem to think though as you will know if you have been following this thread. Neil thought she would bottle it but others were right on the money.

Seems no reason other than politics to want to call it before Brexit. 

As I mentioned earlier May has a lot on her plate. I don`t feel sorry for her. The SNP were invented for indy. People seem to forget that this has always been their goal. we knew what we were voting for up here and they have broke the machine in the past with the numbers of votes. They are quite entitled to go for it and they obviously think they have the numbers now. We have spoken for years on here about Labour voters being that vital few % needed. Labour are proposing a 3rd federal way that you never hear much about as it`s not backed by Labour down your way. Bit of a farce really. Last time round, some Labour voters thought Milliband could be PM. How many think that of Corbyn ?

It just causes more disruption for no good reason....

I`m not sure you are thinking this bit through but I`m also not saying an indy victory is in the bag. Polls at 50/50 compared to at least 20 points behind last time. I`d say all to play for is the good reason.

 

[Comfy Bean]

42 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

what parts of the factual history of the barnet formula don't you know about, comfy?

 

I`m quite happy for the barnet formula and the smoke and mirrors of it`s consequentials to be confined to history. Scotland can make it`s own decisions on the type of Country it wants to be and the Government it wants to elect. I for one would be happy for any monies left on the table to go to Wales.

As we are aware from a previous video posted on here, some unionist types are threatening to move to Wales as a result of indy so I think it`s the least we can do 

[kaosmark2]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Will Sturgeon give each area a veto over scexit, just as she demanded for the EU ref?

Or will she be Ms Double-standards?

Worth noting that the oil-rich Shetland and Orkney Islands are the areas most against independence, with the least support for the SNP. Will they be given the right to secede and take the "it's oor oil" with them?

[eFestivals]

44 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Should Scotland be an independent Country is the indy question we are talking about here. edinburgh is in Scotland.

The question in the UK ref was about the UK. Scotland is in the UK. 

So why does what the question say matter not a fuck in one case and mean everything in the other case?

Might you and Sturgeon have just a few self-serving double standards here? 

[eFestivals]

33 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Neil thought she would bottle it

Liar liar pants on fire. Lies are all you have.

I pointed out that she was bottling it for all the time she wasn't doing it. It's not like the SNP need a reason to call an indyref anyway, as wanting one is their default position.

And again: Liar liar pants on fire. Lies are all you have.

PS she hasn't actually done anything yet, btw. She said she wants one. An SNP leader wants one. Is it even news, really?

Edited March 14, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

35 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I`d say all to play for is the good reason.

so play away.

tell us all about this wonderful Scotland you're proposing, and what currency it'll use and how a £9bn black hole will be dealt with (stonking big cuts, I presume?).

But you only seem to want to tell us it'll be wonderful, but not how wonderful will be achieved. Why is that?

[eFestivals]

33 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I`m quite happy for the barnet formula and the smoke and mirrors of it`s consequentials to be confined to history.

Really? Cos less than a year ago you were posting here about how it was so very important Scotland extracted every last possible penny from Westminster, and everything about it was maintained.

 

33 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Scotland can make it`s own decisions on the type of Country it wants to be

Cool.

So can you please tell us all what the decision is for where the 15% cuts will fall?

Edited March 14, 2017 by eFestivals

[lost]

36 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

Worth noting that the oil-rich Shetland and Orkney Islands are the areas most against independence, with the least support for the SNP. Will they be given the right to secede and take the "it's oor oil" with them?

Nope:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9794316/Alex-Salmond-warning-over-Shetland-oil-after-independence.html

Quote

Shetland’s residents have traditionally been hostile to Scottish independence and prefer Westminster government to that from Holyrood. They were part of Norway until the late 15th century.

The SNP has previously recognised the islands' right to decide their own future but has since changed its mind, with oil revenues vital to its economic case for separation.

Speaking after sending his letter, Mr Scott said: “This week the genie flew out of the nationalist bottle. The SNP doesn’t believe in people determining their future unless it’s on their own nationalist terms.

“That does not work in Shetland. If independence, with all the huge uncertainty that would cause, were to be contemplated, then Shetland will want to fight for what is fairly ours.

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by lost

[eFestivals]

oooo, go Kesia.

Straight to the heart of the matter: where's the money to cover the £15Bn deficit.

[Comfy Bean]

36 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Really? Cos less than a year ago you were posting here about how it was so very important Scotland extracted every last possible penny from Westminster, and everything about it was maintained.

 

I support Scottish indy and therefore the end of the need for Barnett. This is crystal clear. It`s disappointing that you reduce your thread to this. We miss a post moderator type person.

I counted up the number of times you mentioned Sturgeon bottling it but got bored. You then call me a liar. We miss a moderator type person.

You still haven`t got back to me regarding the last time you called me a liar about words you claimed weren`t in an interview even after I had obliged you with the transcript of said interview. 

Unfortunately you will continue un-moderated with your posting "style" and the different voices who have came into this discussion in the last day or so will soon get fed up with all your liar and hate fuelled stuff 

Same as it ever was. I hate to think the state you`ll get into if Scotland brings an end to your beloved union. Or Ireland for that matter.

[Comfy Bean]

13 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

oooo, go Kesia.

Straight to the heart of the matter: where's the money to cover the £15Bn deficit.

Did she mention her federal solution ?

Is that the answer ? Anybody ? can`t see it myself.

[SwedgeAntilles]

Terrific article in today's Guardian by Vonny Moyes. She's pretty much summed up my current feelings word for word;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/14/scottish-independence-referendum-snp-vote-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[LJS]

9 minutes ago, lost said:

Nope:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9794316/Alex-Salmond-warning-over-Shetland-oil-after-independence.html

 

Interesting that you are dredging up an article from over 4 years ago. Both Orkney and Shetland have independence movements ....of sorts. With pitifully little support.

It is true that they don't feel any great affection for Edinburgh. In Shetlands case it's further away than Oslo.  But, I can assure you that that doesn't mean they have any more affection for London.

Both archipelagos have had the good sense & foresight to build up sizeable oil funds which support a standard of public services & infrastructure unequalled in the UK.

Of course any area of any country is entitled to make a case for independence. One would expect it would take a few years for any such movement to gain sufficient momentum.

[pink_triangle]

17 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I support Scottish indy and therefore the end of the need for Barnett. 

If Scotland vote remain do you think Barnett should stay or go? 

[lost]

18 minutes ago, LJS said:

Interesting that you are dredging up an article from over 4 years ago. Both Orkney and Shetland have independence movements ....of sorts. With pitifully little support.

It is true that they don't feel any great affection for Edinburgh. In Shetlands case it's further away than Oslo.  But, I can assure you that that doesn't mean they have any more affection for London.

Both archipelagos have had the good sense & foresight to build up sizeable oil funds which support a standard of public services & infrastructure unequalled in the UK.

Of course any area of any country is entitled to make a case for independence. One would expect it would take a few years for any such movement to gain sufficient momentum.

Well firstly the interesting thing about that article and those like around 4 years ago it are that Salmond doesn't think the Scottish would be stupid enough to vote for indy with out significant oil revenues. i guess we may see if he has over estimated his countrymen?

Secondly your opinion doesn't seem to match that of the Shetlanders in the article?

I guess alot has happened in the last 4 years. Sturgeon has had the power to raise taxes say closer to the Norwegian rate but has chosen not to. If Shetlanders see themselves as Norwegian I guess they would be more racially socialist than the Scots. Who could blame them if they wanted to escape SNP austerity and the corrupt cess pit that is holyrood? Obviously its not because they hate the Scottish, they would still allow the Scots to trader with them, have an open border, cover their nato contributions and even pay off their share of the national debt from when they were part of Scotland, its just that they are better sorry different people who need to make their own way in life.

Edited March 14, 2017 by lost

[Comfy Bean]

17 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

If Scotland vote remain do you think Barnett should stay or go? 

As I said, I support the end of Barnett. If it's put on the table and people vote to stay in the union then I don't think that's fair on the no voters to then scrap it.

Do you think Barnett should be scrapped ?

I think there is a direction of travel from the Tories on Barnett and the consequentials.

Do you think Scotland shits on Wales ?

[Comfy Bean]

13 minutes ago, lost said:

Well firstly the interesting thing about that article and those like around 4 years ago it are that Salmond doesn't think the Scottish would be stupid enough to vote for indy with out significant oil revenues. i guess we may see if he has over estimated his countrymen?

Secondly your opinion doesn't seem to match that of the Shetlanders in the article?

I guess alot has happened in the last 4 years. Sturgeon has had the power to raise taxes say closer to the Norwegian rate but has chosen not to. If Shetlanders see themselves as Norwegian I guess they would be more racially socialist than the Scots. Who could blame them if they wanted to escape SNP austerity and the corrupt cess pool that is holyrood? Obviously its not because they hate the Scottish, they would still allow the Scots to trader with them, have an open border, cover their nato contributions and even pay off their share of the national debt from when they were part of Scotland, its just that they are better sorry different people who need to make their own way in life.

Shetlanders see themselves as Norwegian.....

Are you being serious ?

[lost]

22 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Shetlanders see themselves as Norwegian.....

Are you being serious ?

Yep different country till the 15th century. Scandinavian roots.They are definitely politically different.. Lib dem, whilst Scotland votes Snp or Tory mainly. It's not fair on them not having their voice heard when Scotland keeps voting Snp or Tory and Shetland doesn't have any Snp or Tory politicians at Holyrood

[Comfy Bean]

23 minutes ago, lost said:

Yep different country till the 15th century. Scandinavian roots.They are definitely politically different.. Lib dem, whilst Scotland votes Snp or Tory mainly. It's not fair on them not having their voice heard when Scotland keeps voting Snp or Tory and Shetland doesn't have any Snp or Tory politicians at Holyrood

Fair enough :-)

If I had to be pedantic, your initial post on our friends on the islands claimed they'd prefer Westminster.  

It is also full of Tory and Snp MPs !

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Did she mention her federal solution ?

Is that the answer ? Anybody ? can`t see it myself.

There's no vote proposed on that. Only Indy.

Indy that will need to find £15bn from somewhere otherwise people stop getting paid.

[Comfy Bean]

8 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Here's the 

Scexit
for: nowt
against: the loss of £9bn a year, the risk of damage to 65% of exports.

So while brexit is fucking nuts, scexit goes waaaay beyond the stupidity of brexit.

 

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

There's no vote proposed on that. Only Indy.

Indy that will need to find £15bn from somewhere otherwise people stop getting paid.

Can't believe how bad things have got in the space of an afternoon.

Anyone would think that you were just picking numbers out the sky and applying them to an unknown point in the future.

Of course that would be a little silly.

I think a hard road will lie ahead for an Indy Scotland but I don't imagine we will be returning to the caves lol

[LJS]

2 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I support Scottish indy and therefore the end of the need for Barnett. This is crystal clear. It`s disappointing that you reduce your thread to this. We miss a post moderator type person.

I counted up the number of times you mentioned Sturgeon bottling it but got bored. You then call me a liar. We miss a moderator type person.

You still haven`t got back to me regarding the last time you called me a liar about words you claimed weren`t in an interview even after I had obliged you with the transcript of said interview. 

Unfortunately you will continue un-moderated with your posting "style" and the different voices who have came into this discussion in the last day or so will soon get fed up with all your liar and hate fuelled stuff 

Same as it ever was. I hate to think the state you`ll get into if Scotland brings an end to your beloved union. Or Ireland for that matter.

Neil, may I suggest when Comfy who would run the Dalai Llama close for "The Most  Reasonable man in the World" award most years, gets a bit stroppy, it might be time to take notice.

It would be really nice to hear a range of views aired on here. For that to happen requires that we all respect each others' views & opinions.