The Dirty Independence Question

[russycarps]

9 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

No I don`t mate. I think we were on the same side, from memory.

I`ve seen it said that Brexit was about immigration and building a new hospital per week with the money we would save. They should be springing up around us any day now.

Although we are on the same side, the folk in England and Wales disagreed with us. I respect that just as many folk respect the fact that 62% of folk in Scotland agreed with us. This has given the Scottish Govt the opportunity to ask the indy question and offer us the choice.

The path that the Tories are taking is pretty clear. The material change has happened so the SNP are entitled to ask the question in my view. Some think the answer will be the same but they are entitled to ask. That`s democracy for you.

I am sure you are aware that scottish nationalists and brexiteers are two cheeks of the same arse, to quote one of your compatriots. With the consequences of both being the same: a drastic decline in living standards, with the poorest being hit hardest.

But at least you will have freed yourself from the shackles of london/brussells* I guess. Independence at any cost.

Depresssing times await whole swathes of the population of the UK. What a tragedy.

*delete as applicable.

 

 

 

[eFestivals]

47 minutes ago, zahidf said:

I dont support Scottish or NI independence.

 

My point is May will have a lot of difficulty in broad terms saying Hard Brexit and independence in the EU is good for the Uk, but Scottish independence and NI joining Ireland is 'bad' for them. And its only come up again because of LEAVE

just as Sturgeon will have great difficulty saying brexit is nuts so let's do something even more nutty.

The difference between the two is that the loss of fiscal transfers is guaranteed to be immensely damaging to Scotland (or NI) - on top of any damaging trade issues.

While brexit is cash positive and not cash negative - with lesser damaging trade issues.

They're not the same. One is undoubtedly less damaging than the other.

[eFestivals]

23 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

No I don`t mate. I think we were on the same side, from memory.

I`ve seen it said that Brexit was about immigration and building a new hospital per week with the money we would save. They should be springing up around us any day now.

Although we are on the same side, the folk in England and Wales disagreed with us. I respect that just as many folk respect the fact that 62% of folk in Scotland agreed with us. This has given the Scottish Govt the opportunity to ask the indy question and offer us the choice.

The path that the Tories are taking is pretty clear. The material change has happened so the SNP are entitled to ask the question in my view. Some think the answer will be the same but they are entitled to ask. That`s democracy for you.

Here's the economic realities:-

brexit:
for: worth £8Bn a year
against: the risk of damage to 40% of exports.

Scexit
for: nowt
against: the loss of £9bn a year, the risk of damage to 65% of exports.

So while brexit is fucking nuts, scexit goes waaaay beyond the stupidity of brexit.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, russycarps said:

I am sure you are aware that scottish nationalists and brexiteers are two cheeks of the same arse, to quote one of your compatriots. With the consequences of both being the same: a drastic decline in living standards, with the poorest being hit hardest.

they are both "two cheeks of the same arse", but one is FAR more stupid than the other.

Farage might be a c**t, but he's not a c**t that wanted to throw away 15% of govt revenues as the starting point, before anything of any other damage came into play.

Scottish indy: more stupid than Farage.

Which takes some doing!

 

[gary1979666]

6 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

No I don`t mate. I think we were on the same side, from memory.

I`ve seen it said that Brexit was about immigration and building a new hospital per week with the money we would save. They should be springing up around us any day now.

Although we are on the same side, the folk in England and Wales disagreed with us. I respect that just as many folk respect the fact that 62% of folk in Scotland agreed with us. This has given the Scottish Govt the opportunity to ask the indy question and offer us the choice.

The path that the Tories are taking is pretty clear. The material change has happened so the SNP are entitled to ask the question in my view. Some think the answer will be the same but they are entitled to ask. That`s democracy for you.

I guess it is democracy to a point.  So you're saying that as UK will no longer be in the EU in ~2 years time, then Scotland should vote.  So why not wait a couple of extra years and se what it's like, judge it based on facts, rather than speculation.  You're out the EU anyway, so no huge rush.  Why put at risk the fragile Brexit process?  If we're looking at trade deals, and, say, Canada comes along - would they not prioritise trade with rUK first.  Would it not be better for the whole UK to sort out the different deals, then Scotland can see how they look, then decide to go it alone.  Right now it looks like throwing toys out of the pram.

[GlastoSimon]

I sympathise with a nation that has time and time again been voted poorer by other people.

Whether Indy is the answer to that I have no idea, but given my nation has voted itself poorer I'm not really one to judge  

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, GlastoSimon said:

 

I sympathise with a nation that has time and time again been voted poorer by other people.

 

which nation is that one, then?

It's definitely not Scotland, which gets a brucie bonus every year from the UK, and shits on Wales by demanding that the country which says its the richest in the UK keeps on getting over-funded.

[eFestivals]

44 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I`ve seen it said that Brexit was about immigration

It may or may not have been.

However, if it was, the country with exceedingly similar attitudes towards immigration as England is likely to vote on scexit on the same basis.

Almost two-thirds of Scots think immigration should be reduced

 

[LJS]

1 hour ago, russycarps said:

I am sure you are aware that scottish nationalists and brexiteers are two cheeks of the same arse, to quote one of your compatriots.

I am sure comfy is not aware of this and neither am I, because it is rubbish. The Tories and Ukip fit your description much better. Furthermore, if anything the cheeks grow ever closer. Soon the crack will have all but disappeared.

I expect we will hear a great deal more of this dog whistle nonsense as folk desperately try to claim a link between an outward looking, inclusive, internationalist movement & a bunch of narrow minded, semi-xenophobic, anti immigrant, bigots. All it shows is, yet again a complete failure to understand Scottish politics.

Quote

With the consequences of both being the same: a drastic decline in living standards, with the poorest being hit hardest.

Unlike the post brexit UK where improving the lot of the poor will be at the heart of every government policy.

Quote

But at least you will have freed yourself from the shackles of london/brussells* I guess. Independence at any cost.

Depresssing times await whole swathes of the population of the UK. What a tragedy.

*delete as applicable.

 

I'm more confident of depressing times in post Brexit Lidl Britain.

[LJS]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

it's standard snippers rhetoric, no more or no less than the endless claims that "Scotland is a country" gives a greater right to something civic.

Which ends up as the blood and soil you pretend doesn't exist, and which I've seen tens of thousands of times but not once have I seen it called out by a snipper as wrong.

Blood and soil doesn't exist except in your demented mind.

You have offered absolutely nothing to back up your claim. Which is no surprise as it is groundless. You seem to be under the bizarre impression that constantly asserting something makes it true.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

just as Sturgeon will have great difficulty saying brexit is nuts so let's do something even more nutty.

The difference between the two is that the loss of fiscal transfers is guaranteed to be immensely damaging to Scotland (or NI) - on top of any damaging trade issues.

While brexit is cash positive and not cash negative - with lesser damaging trade issues.

They're not the same. One is undoubtedly less damaging than the other.

Brexit is cash positive? I'm fairly sure you were singing a very different song before the EU ref.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

It may or may not have been.

However, if it was, the country with exceedingly similar attitudes towards immigration as England is likely to vote on scexit on the same basis.

Almost two-thirds of Scots think immigration should be reduced

 

But consistently place it as a much lower priority than England. And consistently vote for pro immigration parties and where Ukip has only ever had 1 elected representative at any level of government.

Edited March 14, 2017 by LJS

[russycarps]

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

I am sure comfy is not aware of this and neither am I, because it is rubbish. The Tories and Ukip fit your description much better. Furthermore, if anything the cheeks grow ever closer. Soon the crack will have all but disappeared.

I expect we will hear a great deal more of this dog whistle nonsense as folk desperately try to claim a link between an outward looking, inclusive, internationalist movement & a bunch of narrow minded, semi-xenophobic, anti immigrant, bigots. All it shows is, yet again a complete failure to understand Scottish politics.

Unlike the post brexit UK where improving the lot of the poor will be at the heart of every government policy.

I'm more confident of depressing times in post Brexit Lidl Britain.

 

You are a raving nationalist. Brexiteers are raving nationalists. I've seen enough arsecheeks in my time to know when 2 are identical.

I also understand economics, and scottish independence will have a catastrophic effect. And as ever it will be the poorest that will be hit hardest. You couldnt give a shit about that, because you are largely insulated from the economic pain (as you admitted during the last referendum). The rest of us do give a shit though, and thank god we do.

[gary1979666]

7 minutes ago, russycarps said:

 

You are a raving nationalist. Brexiteers are raving nationalists. I've seen enough arsecheeks in my time to know when 2 are identical.

I also understand economics, and scottish independence will have a catastrophic effect. And as ever it will be the poorest that will be hit hardest. You couldnt give a shit about that, because you are largely insulated from the economic pain (as you admitted during the last referendum). The rest of us do give a shit though, and thank god we do.

If anything the difference is those two cheeks is more pronounced in the Scexit.  While UK is a net contributor to the EU, then some of the pain will be eased by a net cash position (I know, I know, but this is in relative terms).  Scotland is a net consumer of funds from rUK, so as well as any pain from trade, new systems, etc, it has to plug the gap that Barnett will have left.

[russycarps]

13 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

If anything the difference is those two cheeks is more pronounced in the Scexit.  While UK is a net contributor to the EU, then some of the pain will be eased by a net cash position (I know, I know, but this is in relative terms).  Scotland is a net consumer of funds from rUK, so as well as any pain from trade, new systems, etc, it has to plug the gap that Barnett will have left.

I agree the consequences will be much more profound for scotland, but the principles behind brexit and scexit (not keen on that word, we must be able to do better) are the same. Fear and mistrust of london/brussells. Taking back control. Masters of our own destiny Bla bla bla.

 

[eFestivals]

49 minutes ago, LJS said:

I am sure comfy is not aware of this and neither am I, because it is rubbish.

But it's not.

They're both about pursuing sovereignty at the expense of everything else.

[eFestivals]

48 minutes ago, LJS said:

Blood and soil doesn't exist except in your demented mind.

blood and soil exists within the construct of the ancient country of scotland, the thing which is evoked each and every time someone says "Scotland is a country".

Because in the civic world the past means absolutely fuck all and it's all about what the people determine for themselves.

Just keep on lying to yourself about this, and you can pretend your righteousness as you cosy up with fascists.

[eFestivals]

47 minutes ago, LJS said:

Brexit is cash positive? I'm fairly sure you were singing a very different song before the EU ref.

No, I wasn't singing a different tune. I can do simple subtraction thanks. 

Brexit is cash positive on the only certainty which exists around brexit.  The UK will no lobnger be paying the £9bn a year in subs.

Scexit is cash negative on the only certainty which exists around scexit. Because iScotland will not longer be getting a sub of £9Bn each year.

How deep the damage to trade will be for either we've yet to find out - but even here the numbers indicate a worse outcome for iScotland than for the UK.

[eFestivals]

51 minutes ago, LJS said:

But consistently place it as a much lower priority than England.

which has got nothing at all to do with it's much lower impact than in england, of course. 

But hey, English tories are evil for disliking what strongly exists, while you lot are disliking what barely exists.

 

Quote

And consistently vote for pro immigration parties and where Ukip has only ever had 1 elected representative at any level of government.

because you have your own special brand of UKIP that wants just about all the same things as Farage, while not having an immigration issue to get in the mix because you don't have immigrants of any scale.

Edited March 14, 2017 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

3 hours ago, gary1979666 said:

 Right now it looks like throwing toys out of the pram.

I agree with Russy that this  "Scexit " is a shite term.

It may look like toys out the pram from where you are and especially to those who voted to leave. Fair enough.

It doesn`t look like that to me and the 62% of people living in Scotland who voted to remain. All 32 regions, counts, authorities or whatever you want to call them voted in favour of remain. Each and every one 32 out of 32.

Even Neil agrees the SNP have a mandate but I accept that you see it as toy`s out the pram. We have 1(one) Tory MP and none(0) from UKIP. Nearly 2 out of 3 folk up here voting, voted to remain. Not sure why this is even contentious. Our First Minister has a mandate to give us a choice. We may well choose to stay in Tory led hard brexit uk. Hopefully not  

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Just keep on lying to yourself about this, and you can pretend your righteousness as you cosy up with fascists.

[Comfy Bean]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

......... and shits on Wales by demanding that the country which says its the richest in the UK keeps on getting over-funded.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

It doesn`t look like that to me and the 62% of people living in Scotland who voted to remain. All 32 regions, counts, authorities or whatever you want to call them voted in favour of remain. Each and every one 32 out of 32.

and if you care to notice, no one is saying there's no basis for a vote from that.

They're saying that the people of Scotland don't want one (from polls), or that it's too soon after the last one &/or shouldn't happen till after brexit - neither of which are unreasonable reasons to say it shouldn't happen (as long as genuinely done for that reason).

(note: that's not me backing those reasons, btw, I'm just recognising them)

Meanwhile, will "Each and every one 32 out of 32" count for anything in the indyref?

Will you be happy for the capital of your independent nation to be against that independence?

Will Sturgeon give each area a veto over scexit, just as she demanded for the EU ref?

Or will she be Ms Double-standards?

[eFestivals]

16 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

what parts of the factual history of the barnet formula don't you know about, comfy?

Westminster wanted to lessen the money to Scotland about 50 years ago, to give more to Wales, because Scotland was being/had been raised up and Wales was now further behind. The fuss in Scotland about it led to the (basically) no-change of the Barnett formula, which was only meant to be temporary until Scotland agreed to a cut. It never did.

Sturgeon proudly proclaims that Scotland is the richest part of the UK.

Care to tell me now refusing to give up some of Scotland's extra cash to benefit worse-off Wales isn't shitting on them?

Edited March 14, 2017 by eFestivals

[gary1979666]

18 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I agree with Russy that this  "Scexit " is a shite term.

It may look like toys out the pram from where you are and especially to those who voted to leave. Fair enough.

It doesn`t look like that to me and the 62% of people living in Scotland who voted to remain. All 32 regions, counts, authorities or whatever you want to call them voted in favour of remain. Each and every one 32 out of 32.

Even Neil agrees the SNP have a mandate but I accept that you see it as toy`s out the pram. We have 1(one) Tory MP and none(0) from UKIP. Nearly 2 out of 3 folk up here voting, voted to remain. Not sure why this is even contentious. Our First Minister has a mandate to give us a choice. We may well choose to stay in Tory led hard brexit uk. Hopefully not  

Completely agree about Scexit - I will only write it out of laziness and never say it out loud.

A quick FYI - I voted remain and my country/area of NE Herts voted remain too.

The toys out of the pram comment was on the timing of the referendum.  Seems no reason other than politics to want to call it before Brexit.  It just causes more disruption for no good reason - can't seen UK/rUK/iScotland having any benefit for having it then.  You guys are coming out of the EU, whether you like it or not.  As am I (adding this as I realised I was sounding a bit petulant there). 

Would really love to understand what you would gain by having it then.  To split from rUK ASAP seems to be a bit of a nose cutting/face spiting move.