news & politics:discussion

[Ryan1984]

4 hours ago, mattiloy said:

The press and his party turning on Johnson. It would have to take someone impressively unspiring as leader of the opposition to not sweep the locals + hartlepool.

I think the same would have happened with the previous leader. This country just can’t escape this abusive relationship with the Tories.

Who do you think would do a good job as leader of the opposition right now?

[steviewevie]

[Homer]

Just catching up on the Johnson scandal/s and this is a decent precis:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/26/boris-johnson-isolated-and-at-risk-of-becoming-uncontrollable

Not sure if I really get this bit though:

They [Tory source] cited the Sunday Times story that Rosenfield and Johnson may have been warned in private about the European Super League. “Honestly, I think that has the potential to be the most damaging in the longer term,” the source said. “It could be career-ending if that happened on another day.”

I mean, I don't like the Super League either - but surely this is a relatively trivial matter?!
 

[mattiloy]

8 hours ago, Ryan1984 said:

I think the same would have happened with the previous leader. This country just can’t escape this abusive relationship with the Tories.

Who do you think would do a good job as leader of the opposition right now?

Anybody not from the hard right of the party. A year ago I thought Starmer would be a decent enough leader. They aren’t interested in winning, just in the complete demoralisation of anybody interested in social and economic justice.

If the centre left gets the labour leadership again they need to sack the majority of MPs, change the party machinery so that it favours the membership for good. If they don’t get the leadership again, then Starmer’s hard right coup is the end of the labour party.

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Anybody not from the hard right of the party. A year ago I thought Starmer would be a decent enough leader. They aren’t interested in winning, just in the complete demoralisation of anybody interested in social and economic justice.

If the centre left gets the labour leadership again they need to sack the majority of MPs, change the party machinery so that it favours the membership for good. If they don’t get the leadership again, then Starmer’s hard right coup is the end of the labour party.

Starmer isn't from the hard right of the party. You're just bitter cause he kicked out corbyn for antisemitism.

[Homer]

11 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Anybody not from the hard right of the party. A year ago I thought Starmer would be a decent enough leader. They aren’t interested in winning, just in the complete demoralisation of anybody interested in social and economic justice.

If the centre left gets the labour leadership again they need to sack the majority of MPs, change the party machinery so that it favours the membership for good. If they don’t get the leadership again, then Starmer’s hard right coup is the end of the labour party.

So... who do you think would do a good job as leader of the opposition right now?

[mattiloy]

15 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Starmer isn't from the hard right of the party. You're just bitter cause he kicked out corbyn for antisemitism.

Oh but he is. If you think that Corbyn is antisemitic, you are right wing or an idiot.

10 minutes ago, Homer said:

So... who do you think would do a good job as leader of the opposition right now?

Dan Carden would be my pick.

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

Oh but he is. If you think that Corbyn is antisemitic, you are right wing or an idiot.

Oh, right. Thought crime against dear leader.

I didn't say he was antisemitic, I said he was kicked out for antisemitism.

[mattiloy]

Just now, steviewevie said:

Oh, right. Thought crime against dear leader.

I didn't say he was antisemitic, I said he was kicked out for antisemitism.

I didn’t call you an idiot - I called Keir Starmer an idiot, or right wing. Or both.

For what its worth, I think you’re pretty reasonable, and I’m sure on policy we agree on a lot!

Edited April 27, 2021 by mattiloy

[steviewevie]

Just now, mattiloy said:

I didn’t call you an idiot - I called Keir Starmer an idiot, or right wing. Or both.

he didn't call Corbyn an antisemite either.

[mattiloy]

19 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

he didn't call Corbyn an antisemite either.

Then what has he sacked him for?

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Then what has he sacked him for?

for saying antisemitism in labour was overstated and did not accept all findings of that report.

[steviewevie]

although there is this...

[mattiloy]

30 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

although there is this...

Admittedly, this was the one example I thought ’oh no’. Even if he hasn’t thought about that it might be perceived to have antisemitic undertones - the conspiracy theorist stuff is weird enough.

Still, you can be a conspiracy theorist without being an antisemite.

 

30 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

for saying antisemitism in labour was overstated and did not accept all findings of that report.

The report was about as unbias as the tory’s race report.

Do you think that antisemitism wasn’t overstated for political reasons?

Is it just a coincidence that all those who thought that Corbyn was antisemitic also were diametrically opposed to Corbynism on policy and the ringleaders tended to be MPs from Labour hard right who were under threat of deselection.

Jews to the centre left of the party also disagreed with the findings and were subject to viscious attacks by the hard right of the party as ’self hating jews’ and in some cases even removed from the party for voicing support for Corbyn..

Edited April 27, 2021 by mattiloy

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

Oh but he is. If you think that Corbyn is antisemitic, you are right wing or an idioit

Cobyn is the idiot doing the exact thing he was warned not to do doubling down on the dworst thing of his time as leader. 

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

Dan Carden would be my pick.

 

[squirrelarmy]

Anyone else getting deja vu in here?

[mattiloy]

40 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Cobyn is the idiot doing the exact thing he was warned not to do doubling down on the dworst thing of his time as leader. 

 

It wasn’t the worst thing. I don’t think workington man believed or gave a shit about the AS nonsense. I also don’t think that by attacking those who were smeared as antisemitic, Starmer will win many votes, those who were shouting it loudest were not natural labour voters. But he did alienate a large base of natural voters by doing it. As the polls demonstrate. He’s an idiot.

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

It wasn’t the worst thing. I don’t think workington man believed or gave a shit about the AS nonsense. I also don’t think that by attacking those who were smeared as antisemitic, Starmer will win many votes, those who were shouting it loudest were not natural labour voters. But he did alienate a large base of natural voters by doing it. As the polls demonstrate. He’s an idiot.

what is a natural labour voter?

[mattiloy]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

what is a natural labour voter?

Those who are on the pointy end of injustice, be it social, economic, human rights, whatever - and those who are sympathetic to those on the receiving on of injustice.

Not those who give occasional lip service to it, occasionally dip their toe in the water for appearance’s sake, but who are generally part of the comfortable classes and would never wish to see their own comfort diminished, even if it was for the benefit of society as a whole. Those who lack empathy, lack original ideas, lack critical thinking: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN GIVE IT UP FOR THE LIBERAL DEMOCRATS!! 👏 👏 👏 

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

Those who are on the pointy end of injustice, be it social, economic, human rights, whatever - and those who are sympathetic to those on the receiving on of injustice.

Not those who give occasional lip service to it, occasionally dip their toe in the water for appearance’s sake, but who are generally part of the comfortable classes and would never wish to see their own comfort diminished, even if it was for the benefit of society as a whole. Those who lack empathy, lack original ideas, lack critical thinking: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN GIVE IT UP FOR THE LIBERAL DEMOCRATS!! 👏 👏 👏 

ok, and you don't think "natural labour voters" would be bothered about all the accusations of antisemitism against labour under corbyn's watch?

[Cherry Tree]

Anybody else think we need a new topic.

Glasto politics: Non covid news: Non labour leader news. 

I know we should not restrict debate, but having the same debate ad nauseam is tiresome, every subject and every post ends up coming back to is Starmer a good leader with none of the main posters adding anything new or remotely changing each others opinion.

 

[topmarksbri]

2 hours ago, mattiloy said:

hard right

hehehehe - can we get fascist wing of the party next?

11 hours ago, Ryan1984 said:

Who do you think would do a good job as leader of the opposition right now?

Should have been Nandy... KS doing ok at the Westminster stuff (PMQs etc) but poorly on the general PR/Media stuff which is what most of the public actually pay attention to. 

23 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

Anyone else getting deja vu in here?

This thread is just a constant cycle of news comes out > interpret it in the way that supports your preexisting beliefs > Corbyn was awful/Starmer's terrible > try and persuade people who have diametrically opposed beliefs to yourself to change their long held beliefs.

It does however keep everything out of the main thread so mission accomplished I guess. 

[topmarksbri]

Something a bit different - thoughts...

[steviewevie]

11 minutes ago, Cherry Tree said:

Anybody else think we need a new topic.

Glasto politics: Non covid news: Non labour leader news. 

I know we should not restrict debate, but having the same debate ad nauseam is tiresome, every subject and every post ends up coming back to is Starmer a good leader with none of the main posters adding anything new or remotely changing each others opinion.

 

yeah...you're right....just pisses me off that if you think labour had an antisemitism problem then you must be blairite centrist scum pro-israel  idiot. I actually think Starmer made a political mistake kicking Corbyn out...but I also think that Corbyn didn't leave him much choice.

[eFestivals]

56 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

It wasn’t the worst thing. I don’t think workington man believed or gave a shit about the AS nonsense. I also don’t think that by attacking those who were smeared as antisemitic, Starmer will win many votes, those who were shouting it loudest were not natural labour voters. But he did alienate a large base of natural voters by doing it. As the polls demonstrate. He’s an idiot.

The average person thought the problem was worse than it really was and what they thought of it came out in the votes Labour got. Corbyn kept saying he'd deal with it but never really did. If he had the problem would have gone away. 

Edited April 27, 2021 by eFestivals