When will this shit end?

[zahidf]

 

 

 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, zahidf said:

TBF the EMA says its fine. Its the countries own national regulators ignoring them!

This is a very good point. It's also worth pointing out that the UK could still be doing exactly the same as we are are now if we were still full members of the EU. We were still bound by EU rules last year and manage to procure all the doses of vaccines after all.

[steviewevie]

From guardian feed...

A health worker in Norway has become the second person to die after receiving the AstraZeneca anti-Covid vaccine, though no direct link to the jab has been established, AFP reports citing the health authorities.

On Saturday, Norway’s health authorities said three health care employees had been hospitalised with blood clots, bleeding and abnormally low levels of platelets in the blood.

All of them were under 50, and all had received a first dose of the vaccine made by the Anglo-Swedish pharma group.

One of the three, described as a woman “in good health”, died on Sunday after a brain haemorrhage, health authorities said. She had been hospitalised on Thursday, about a week after getting the jab (see earlier).

“We can neither confirm nor exclude that it has something to do with the vaccine,” an official from the Norwegian Medicines Agency, Steinar Madsen, told reporters.

The condition of the two others was reported to be stable.

Another health worker in her 30s also died on Friday in Norway, 10 days after receiving the same vaccine. Other deaths have also been reported in Europe, notably in Austria and Denmark.

The European Medicines Agency is currently investigating these deaths to see if there is a link to the vaccine.

On Friday, the World Health Organization said there was “no indication to not use” the vaccine, while the manufacturer itself insisted it was safe.

According to Norwegian medical authorities, around 130,000 people had received the vaccine in Norway before it was suspended.

The medicines agency in Denmark - the first country to suspend the use of the vaccine last Thursday after reporting a post-jab death - on Monday revealed that the victim was a 60-year-old woman who had suffered blood clots, low platelet levels and haemorrhages after receiving the vaccine.

The agency said it had informed people who had received the AstraZeneca vaccine in the past two weeks to look out for symptoms such as unusual bruising, bleeding, and severe headaches or stomachaches.

About 150,000 people in Denmark have received one dose of the AstraZeneca vaccine and 583 two doses.

 

[Toilet Duck]

Based on the data from widespread use in the UK, I'm pretty sure the vaccine is just fine (though European shots are manufactured elsewhere). However, there's a safety signal. It's an odd one, but random stuff does turn up in odd ways. It still needs to be investigated. It's standard practice in post-authorisation pharmacovigilance (maybe a bit more cautious given it's a vaccine and we are giving it to everybody). If we ignored it and it actually turned out to be something, then the damage would be far greater (not just for this vaccine, but for all vaccines, for all diseases...for the rest of time the refrain would be "look, they got it wrong with the COVID jab"). I honestly don't know how you can't see that? Macron and other eejits were playing politics earlier on, but this is not the same (I too am disappointed in AZ's performance, but if it was the Pfizer jab in question here, I'd expect the same approach, indeed, anaphylactic reactions to that one were reported early on, which led to a change in use....as it should). 

[steviewevie]

10 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

from what exactly ? 

I think the point is the economy would recover quicker if came out of lockdown first...but it's going to be a bit of a slog for some, and wonderful for others.

[zahidf]

1 minute ago, Toilet Duck said:

Based on the data from widespread use in the UK, I'm pretty sure the vaccine is just fine (though European shots are manufactured elsewhere). However, there's a safety signal. It's an odd one, but random stuff does turn up in odd ways. It still needs to be investigated. It's standard practice in post-authorisation pharmacovigilance (maybe a bit more cautious given it's a vaccine and we are giving it to everybody). If we ignored it and it actually turned out to be something, then the damage would be far greater (not just for this vaccine, but for all vaccines, for all diseases...for the rest of time the refrain would be "look, they got it wrong with the COVID jab"). I honestly don't know how you can't see that? Macron and other eejits were playing politics earlier on, but this is not the same (I too am disappointed in AZ's performance, but if it was the Pfizer jab in question here, I'd expect the same approach, indeed, anaphylactic reactions to that one were reported early on, which led to a change in use....as it should). 

investigation is fine. Its more suspending the use of it the way they have been doing. 

[Guest]

Vaccination update including weekly figures:

[xxialac]

37 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

The ones who go back to normal first will ultimately win.

Country X goes back to normal earlier with terrible economic damage and high death toll.

Country Y goes back to normal later with much lower economic damage and death toll.

Massive oversimplification to say Country X has done better...

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

investigation is fine. Its more suspending the use of it the way they have been doing. 

well I guess they have to suspend if investigating whether vaccine can lead to blood clots...just in case...

[Toilet Duck]

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

investigation is fine. Its more suspending the use of it the way they have been doing. 

Unfortunately, that's how investigations go...there's a pause, if it's ok, it restarts. We had this during the trials (not just for AZ, other candidates were paused too...mostly it's fine, but it would dent confidence if it were ignored and it turned out that in very rare circumstances, it wasn't suitable for some people...it's exactly why real world use is followed up as really rare things don't show up in a trial of a few thousand people...). 

[xxialac]

5 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

That's a huge question which I only have time to give a simple answer too...

Imagine every British based business with a global presence of any size that is currently held back by domestic covid restrictions.  Social distancing in factories / offices - supply chain issues and so on.  If we spring back sooner and start reversing those issues quicker - our businesses can meeting the demands that are in the market again sooner - our companies will be seen as more reliable - will win more orders - will grow quicker - can dominate the opposition. 

The domestic supply chain will also receive a boost.  Reliability is more important than unit price right now.  We simply can't get some parts from other countries.  British business will look more attractive both here and abroad if we can guarantee delivery.  Markets will open which never made financial sense before.  We compete with Germany for example of high quality engineering.  We can beat them! 

There is a massive opportunity for the country right now.  Im not doing the question justice with my explanation probably but there really is.

So let me get this straight.

We have enormously inferior manufacturing compared to countries like Germany after decades of underinvestment but because their vaccine rollout is a couple of months behind, now suddenly we're world leaders?

This is beyond deluded.

Germany will open up this Summer.

The UK will open up this Summer.

We'll have more freedoms for more stuff like concerts and events (great) but you're getting hopelessly carried away.

Edited March 15, 2021 by xxialac

[xxialac]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

Do you really think getting the vaccine into as many arms as quick as possible is just about saving lives ? If you do you are seriously wet behind the ears.

Nice strawman.

[Billy Corgan's Ego]

6 minutes ago, Toilet Duck said:

Unfortunately, that's how investigations go...there's a pause, if it's ok, it restarts. We had this during the trials (not just for AZ, other candidates were paused too...mostly it's fine, but it would dent confidence if it were ignored and it turned out that in very rare circumstances, it wasn't suitable for some people...it's exactly why real world use is followed up as really rare things don't show up in a trial of a few thousand people...). 

This is in no way meant to be confrontational - do you think the UK is being irresponsible here by not suspending it?

We appear to becoming a proper outlier. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Billy Corgan's Ego

[xxialac]

Nope: You wrote:

"The ones who go back to normal first will ultimately win"

The simplification was all yours.

[Hannibal Schmitt]

9 minutes ago, Toilet Duck said:

Unfortunately, that's how investigations go...there's a pause, if it's ok, it restarts. We had this during the trials (not just for AZ, other candidates were paused too...mostly it's fine, but it would dent confidence if it were ignored and it turned out that in very rare circumstances, it wasn't suitable for some people...it's exactly why real world use is followed up as really rare things don't show up in a trial of a few thousand people...). 

problem is they will dent confidence anyway. if they do not investigate the uncertainty will stay high and if they investigate it will be straight in the row with all those issues with the AZ there have been in the past. Many older people are already uncertain if they take this vaccine at all. The Media here has been full of AZ stories in the past few weeks, you have not heard anything from the Biotech or Moderna, so people get the impression with all those news that something is not right there.

[xxialac]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

As we was with the 12 week spacing of the vaccines and not signing up to the EU bullshit vaccine purchasing strategy.  We need to have more respect for ourselves and be comfortable with being out there doing our own thing.

Like initially pursuing herd immunity at the start of all this?

We've gambled a couple of times. Recent gambles good. Doesn't mean all gambles must be good.

 

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Hannibal Schmitt said:

problem is they will dent confidence anyway. if they do not investigate the uncertainty will stay high and if they investigate it will be straight in the row with all those issues with the AZ there have been in the past. Many older people are already uncertain if they take this vaccine at all. The Media here has been full of AZ stories in the past few weeks, you have not heard anything from the Biotech or Moderna, so people get the impression with all those news that something is not right there.

yeah, this. I would rather the Pfizer one too!

[zahidf]

12 minutes ago, Billy Corgan's Ego said:

This is in no way meant to be confrontational - do you think the UK is being irresponsible here by not suspending it?

We appear to becoming a proper outlier. 

Why? We haven't had any events of concern..

[xxialac]

5 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

That such a piss poor response - the dithered at the start - most countries did - I think we all know it wasn't an actual strategy and was simply on the table to be discussed.

You're simply re-writing history.

The UK initially pursued a herd mentality type strategy, as did Sweden. It was a gamble. When it then appeared that it would cause a devastating toll, there was an abrupt U-turn.

This is all evidenced and in the public domain. 

[xxialac]

That's a bit aggressive towards zahidf, no?

[zahidf]

2 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Your bastardised version of history...  There was clearly a moment where we considered if we could ride this out and then we realised it was going to require lockdowns.  You call that a strategy - thats bollocks to be frank and it always was bollocks.  Chris Whitty said its bollocks and I trust him more than a no mark like yourself 😛 

You are boring me now - you have taken us so far off topic.  On ya bike 🙂 - a second time 🙂 

Lol what?

[northernringo]

2 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Your bastardised version of history...  There was clearly a moment where we considered if we could ride this out and then we realised it was going to require lockdowns.  You call that a strategy - thats bollocks to be frank and it always was bollocks.  Chris Whitty said its bollocks and I trust him more than a no mark like yourself 😛 

You are boring me now - you have taken us so far off topic.  On ya bike 🙂 - a second time 🙂 

Think you have quoted the wrong person...

[Toilet Duck]

5 minutes ago, Billy Corgan's Ego said:

This is in no way meant to be confrontational - do you think the UK is being irresponsible here by not suspending it?

We appear to becoming a proper outlier. 

Not interpreted as confrontational at all! No, you have no safety signal for the vaccine you are currently administering. If the MHRA thought there was, they too would pause the roll out, but they don't so, no reason to stop at the moment. There have been clotting events in the UK, but it's the odd clustering of them in people that you wouldn't expect them in and in anatomical locations that you wouldn't expect that has raised the red flag on the EU doses. There's a biological explanation for why it might be happening. I really don't want to fuel anti-vax sentiment by explaining it (i had got an explanation here, but deleted it as it'll open can of worms!)... It's probably random, but it's something I would look into if I were a regulator. That signal isn't there in the UK, and your supplies are not coming from the same place, so either its random or its a manufacturing issue. Important to find out though. 

[zahidf]

A few issues with the precautionary principle

 

[km9]

1 hour ago, Barry Fish said:

It hasn't been like that for a very long time (70s?)  Bunch of rich white guys mainly now.  It's big business. 

How dare those white guys go to festivals.