Secondary Ticketing Sites

[Chewie]

Surely venues would need training around IDs for bar staff and such, so this could be extended to door staff

And yes it would be difficult to implement across the wide spectrum of UK venues but the major problem is around the big arenas. This is where touts are making their money but also where it would be easiest to implement for venues

[beodeejay]

12 hours ago, DeanoL said:

That's not true. Where you say "all venues" is actually only a small subset. Arts Centres, Theatres, and most seated venues don't have either age restrictions or have scanned tickets.

Plenty of mid-size music venues still aren't fully equipped for scanning e-tickets although it's a lot more now than it was two years ago. 

Hell, Sheeran's RAH gig is apparently using ID tickets but they don't ID as a matter of course. Don't believe the show has an age restriction either.

The big arenas won't have restrictions for a lot of shows either as families attend. You really think Take That only play 16+ shows?

Most of the toilet circuit won't have e-ticket scanning in place either.

You're generalising your own very limited experience to every venue in the UK and it's just plain nonsense. Maybe every Live Nation venue can do them now, but if those are the only music venues we're bothering to even recognise as existing at this point then the UK scene is in a sad state.

(And of course, the biggest touting problems happen when big bands play the sort of small venues that would struggle to support this stuff).

All true - but the little Arts venues tend not to get scalped via the resellers - its the arena tours and  get hit when demand far exceeds capacity.

There will be a few examples of a prebooked act going stellar, and touts moving in.... but most smaller venues aren't involved in the secondary ticket market for most of the events...as they don't often sell out - or if they do, its a close call and there is no real demand for tickets at a huge premium.

 

In my area - the sub-Apollo venues ( likes of Bury Met, Band on the Wall, The Deaf Institute, Leeds Irish centre etc etc)  - all host pro, established bands playing to a few hundred...  at or near capacity but often 80-90% sold, with tickets available on the door.

They could cope with photo ID, scanners etc  in most cases...  but there is no need.   So a blanket legal change would be adverse and add costs for no good/real reason.

It needs the promoters, artists and big venues to use Glasto style photo ID tickets...   offer insurance against not being able to go for a serious reason ( like See do for Glastonbury) ... at the buyers discretion/risk.

 

The audience would need to be organised enough to register an ID picture with See, or whoever, then log in and then buy a ticket.    

The cost - some preparation and organisation.  Maybe a couple of quid on a ticket (but these will be £30 - 40 or more in most cases already) and - if you want - c£5 for insurance..  

The benefit - no touting at 2, 3 or 10 times the face value.

It is the obvious solution to the industrial touting - practical, available now and proven to work by Mr Eavis.

It doesn't need legislation, it just needs artists, promoters and venues to stop being complicit (to varying levels) with the resellers... 

The fact it isn't the norm for arena sized  gigs suggests those involved in the gigs - at various levels - make too much ££££ out of the resellers... otherwise, why would it happen ? 

 

Edited February 23, 2017 by beodeejay
spelling

[Johnnyseven]

My understanding is that a promoter books a band for a gig/tour and agrees to pay them x amount of money for the gig/tour. The details around the costs and selling of tickets are up to the promoter so it's unfair to put the blame on the artists. You could say that artists could insist that they have a say in how promoters sell tickets but this may lead to them getting paid less or not getting booked at all. In an age where the only way to make money is playing gigs I see why they wouldn't want to rock the boat.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Johnnyseven

[briddj]

13 hours ago, DeanoL said:

That's not true. Where you say "all venues" is actually only a small subset. Arts Centres, Theatres, and most seated venues don't have either age restrictions or have scanned tickets.

Plenty of mid-size music venues still aren't fully equipped for scanning e-tickets although it's a lot more now than it was two years ago. 

Hell, Sheeran's RAH gig is apparently using ID tickets but they don't ID as a matter of course. Don't believe the show has an age restriction either.

The big arenas won't have restrictions for a lot of shows either as families attend. You really think Take That only play 16+ shows?

Most of the toilet circuit won't have e-ticket scanning in place either.

You're generalising your own very limited experience to every venue in the UK and it's just plain nonsense. Maybe every Live Nation venue can do them now, but if those are the only music venues we're bothering to even recognise as existing at this point then the UK scene is in a sad state.

(And of course, the biggest touting problems happen when big bands play the sort of small venues that would struggle to support this stuff).

Completely wrong - every single venue with a standing area has age restrictions placed upon it. Every one.

[briddj]

55 minutes ago, beodeejay said:

All true - but the little Arts venues tend not to get scalped via the resellers - its the arena tours and  get hit when demand far exceeds capacity.

There will be a few examples of a prebooked act going stellar, and touts moving in.... but most smaller venues aren't involved in the secondary ticket market for most of the events...as they don't often sell out - or if they do, its a close call and there is no real demand for tickets at a huge premium.

 

In my area - the sub-Apollo venues ( likes of Bury Met, Band on the Wall, The Deaf Institute, Leeds Irish centre etc etc)  - all host pro, established bands playing to a few hundred...  at or near capacity but often 80-90% sold, with tickets available on the door.

They could cope with photo ID, scanners etc  in most cases...  but there is no need.   So a blanket legal change would be adverse and add costs for no good/real reason.

It needs the promoters, artists and big venues to use Glasto style photo ID tickets...   offer insurance against not being able to go for a serious reason ( like See do for Glastonbury) ... at the buyers discretion/risk.

 

The audience would need to be organised enough to register an ID picture with See, or whoever, then log in and then buy a ticket.    

The cost - some preparation and organisation.  Maybe a couple of quid on a ticket (but these will be £30 - 40 or more in most cases already) and - if you want - c£5 for insurance..  

The benefit - no touting at 2, 3 or 10 times the face value.

It is the obvious solution to the industrial touting - practical, available now and proven to work by Mr Eavis.

It doesn't need legislation, it just needs artists, promoters and venues to stop being complicit (to varying levels) with the resellers... 

The fact it isn't the norm for arena sized  gigs suggests those involved in the gigs - at various levels - make too much ££££ out of the resellers... otherwise, why would it happen ? 

 

You've said most I wanted to say for me so no point repeating it. Academy venues and also do get targetted, but the arts centres certainly aren't where the problem is.

I'm not advocating photo ID tickets. I think that is completely unworkable. But names on tickets is EASY to do, and can be done now. It just isn't that difficult.

I've had to show ID for tickets at a whole range of venues, from the small Electric Ballroom and Tuffnell Park Dome to an Academy venue and an arena. They can all do it, if the promoters want it.

[DeanoL]

44 minutes ago, Johnnyseven said:

My understanding is that a promoter books a band for a gig/tour and agrees to pay them x amount of money for the gig/tour. The details around the costs and selling of tickets are up to the promoter so it's unfair to put the blame on the artists. You could say that artists could insist that they have a say in how promoters sell tickets but this may lead to them getting paid less or not getting booked at all. In an age where the only way to make money is playing gigs I see why they wouldn't want to rock the boat.

That's true. But generally the band's manager will set that fee by looking at the venue capacity and the proposed ticket price, multiplying the two together and deciding how much of it he wants. Hence why if a band is playing a 500-seater and 1000-seater on the same tour, the 500-seater isn't twice the price. 

12 minutes ago, briddj said:

Completely wrong - every single venue with a standing area has age restrictions placed upon it. Every one.

So we've gone from "every venue" to "every venue with a standing area". And ironically I guess we're also not including festivals...

[DeanoL]

15 minutes ago, briddj said:

You've said most I wanted to say for me so no point repeating it. Academy venues and also do get targetted, but the arts centres certainly aren't where the problem is.

For music maybe not. But if you think scalping isn't also a big problem for high profile touring comics and theatrical productions you'd be wrong.

[Johnnyseven]

23 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

That's true. But generally the band's manager will set that fee by looking at the venue capacity and the proposed ticket price, multiplying the two together and deciding how much of it he wants. Hence why if a band is playing a 500-seater and 1000-seater on the same tour, the 500-seater isn't twice the price. 

They wouldn't get a say on how the tickets are sold though, that would be down to the promoter. The promoter is only interested in selling all of the tickets, doesn't care who to. If they can bulk sell them to an agent before they officially go on sale who will then sell at a mark up on a secondary ticketing site they don't care - as long as they have sold the tickets. It these guys that are the crooks, the artists shouldn't be blamed.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Johnnyseven

[beodeejay]

24 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

For music maybe not. But if you think scalping isn't also a big problem for high profile touring comics and theatrical productions you'd be wrong.

And photo/buyer adress ID would help reduce this too.

Glasto tickets are quite lavish, with other measures embedded in them - but a decent passport picture on a ticket must be fairly straightforward, and therefore not too £££ to roll out as venue printers/software get renewed.

Its a basic choice - we (punters) push for ID on tickets (names, and or/photo, subject to event & location) to become the norm, at some minor inconvenience and minor cost - or we accept the fiasco/scandal/rip-off beanfeast that is the secondary market... at huge cost and massive, frustrating, stressful annoyance.

 

Edited February 23, 2017 by beodeejay

[DeanoL]

49 minutes ago, Johnnyseven said:

They wouldn't get a say on how the tickets are sold though, that would be down to the promoter. The promoter is only interested in selling all of the tickets, doesn't care who to. If they can bulk sell them to an agent before they officially go on sale who will then sell at a mark up on a secondary ticketing site they don't care - as long as they have sold the tickets. It these guys that are the crooks, the artists shouldn't be blamed.

All true. But the accusation is that they bulk sell those tickets at higher than face value to these secondary agents. So the promoter sells £50 tickets to Seatwave (for example) at £70 who then sell them for £100. And that's how they're able to get allocations of tickets within seconds of them going on sale (and often the best seats). 

[Johnnyseven]

I don't disagree DeanoL but people seemed to be laying the blame on artists, or saying they shouldn't allow it, but in reality it's nothing to do with them and out of their control. The only artists that might be able to do anything are the really big ones that have promoters falling over themselves to work with them.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Johnnyseven

[JoBalls]

22 hours ago, NorwegianBlur said:

I'm from Norway, and here you're not allowed to sell you ticket for more than face value, keeps touts out of the game 

If other countries can do it then there's no reason we can't do it too. No need for ID on regular gig tickets or anything like that, just make it illegal to sell gig tickets on for profit, same as it is with football tickets. Would instantly put a stop to the whole thing because sites like Viagogo and Stubhub wouldn't be able to function as they are anymore.

In terms of not selling for profit - in my opinion you should be allowed to sell tickets on for face value + postage costs/booking fee. That's it. 

[mjsell]

I'd say the future/solution is nothing to do with putting ID photos on physical tickets, because it is the physical tickets that need to be gotten rid of.

Its fairly simple with todays smartphone technology to have tickets that are unique and non-transferable that are saved onto a phones app which are scanned as normal upon entry. Add in the ability to send back the ticket if you can no longer attend that can then be resold to other fans that still want a ticket (with a non-refundable period closer to the event so that no tickets are left unsold).

Oh hold on I've just described the usp of DICE. The concept already exists. Artists could easily push for their tickets to be sold via these platforms.

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

The majority of artists will be so far removed from the ticket selling process that you can't for a second blame them for it. How many layers are there between them, their manager, record label, promoter? The only way they might step in and have a say is if they are personally aware of the process of secondary sites and feel it's their duty to step in and do something about it, but when would the last time an artist would've actually had to buy a ticket to a gig? 

[beodeejay]

42 minutes ago, mjsell said:

I'd say the future/solution is nothing to do with putting ID photos on physical tickets, because it is the physical tickets that need to be gotten rid of.

Its fairly simple with todays smartphone technology to have tickets that are unique and non-transferable that are saved onto a phones app which are scanned as normal upon entry. Add in the ability to send back the ticket if you can no longer attend that can then be resold to other fans that still want a ticket (with a non-refundable period closer to the event so that no tickets are left unsold).

Oh hold on I've just described the usp of DICE. The concept already exists. Artists could easily push for their tickets to be sold via these platforms.

Won't happen for a while...  the option to print at home or get physical tickets is an industry norm - because not everyone who buys tickets has a smartphone... 

Some form of ID verification can be used on all platforms, all types of ticket, printed or otherwise.

 

   

[beodeejay]

36 minutes ago, Deaf Nobby Burton said:

The majority of artists will be so far removed from the ticket selling process that you can't for a second blame them for it. How many layers are there between them, their manager, record label, promoter? The only way they might step in and have a say is if they are personally aware of the process of secondary sites and feel it's their duty to step in and do something about it, but when would the last time an artist would've actually had to buy a ticket to a gig? 

The majority ?     No way - the majority of artists probably promote themselves.     

 

The majority of BIG artists, where touts are an issue  ... perhaps - but even then, they will be involved to the point where they could intervene... 

[chatty]

It should be banned.  Its an absolute con,  a lot of companies put a vast amount of their tickets on them before theyve already gone on sale so they can inflate the price and brag about ten minute sell outs. 

Its utterly ridiculous its allowed really but unfortunately people are willing to pay the extra price to allow them to thrive in it so until they start losing money on them then I dont see it changing anytime soon. 

[Glastoboy]

I'm sick to death of the whole business. I don't comprehend why some of the more vocal high profile bands with deep pockets don't get together and do something about it.

Jay Z (and others) set up Deezer to try and protect their own interests in the streaming business. But I don't see a collective trying to protect the fans from the ticket resale scam.

You know some of these big artists could easily club together to set up something fairer for the punter/consumer/real fan.

I hear a lot of bleating from some of these artists but no action. How hard or expensive can it really be for them to get their shit together and build a website to overcome the current status quo?

Edited February 24, 2017 by Glastoboy

[Glastoboy]

Also. The current situation means those with the most money get the tickets. We all know any gig is better when packed to the rafters with real fans.

[Johnnyseven]

There's another way of looking at this if you think bands should intervene to stop this happening, i'm not saying that I agree with it though. We live in an era where large numbers of music 'fans' download music for free rather than paying for it, if artists are making money from secondary ticketing can you blame them when people aren't paying for their records?

[briddj]

On 22/02/2017 at 1:12 PM, evilduck said:

Yeah I agree with this. I have friends who go to gigs a fair bit but still seem quite ignorant about which sites are real primary ticketing sites, and which are resellers. If you search 'Ed Sheeran tickets' and don't know any better, then you will probably just click whatever links are at the top.

Touching back on this again, I was scrolling through the comments on the Shed Seven/Cast Facebook page having got tickets to their sold out tour dates in December. Quite a few people cropping up on there asking why they paid £60 a ticket, only for peope to tell them what Viagogo is. They did exactly as we discussed - searched Google and clicked the first link.

[Migraine]

On 23/02/2017 at 3:30 PM, mjsell said:

I'd say the future/solution is nothing to do with putting ID photos on physical tickets, because it is the physical tickets that need to be gotten rid of.

Its fairly simple with todays smartphone technology to have tickets that are unique and non-transferable that are saved onto a phones app which are scanned as normal upon entry. Add in the ability to send back the ticket if you can no longer attend that can then be resold to other fans that still want a ticket (with a non-refundable period closer to the event so that no tickets are left unsold).

Oh hold on I've just described the usp of DICE. The concept already exists. Artists could easily push for their tickets to be sold via these platforms.

Dice is still a pain in the arse though I was going to a gig with a friend who had something come up a couple of days before so couldn't make it. He tried to have his ticket transferred to another friend but got no response, in the end he gave his friend his login details so the ticket didn't go to waste.

[mungo57]

On 25/02/2017 at 11:04 PM, Migraine said:

Dice is still a pain in the arse though I was going to a gig with a friend who had something come up a couple of days before so couldn't make it. He tried to have his ticket transferred to another friend but got no response, in the end he gave his friend his login details so the ticket didn't go to waste.

I've heard similar.

Apparently there is a way in the DICE app you can effectively text the ticket to others - kinda like sending an e-voucher?

I've only ever been with paper/print at home tickets to gigs as things stand and Cave will be the first DICE gig but thats not until September

[evilduck]

You can send the ticket to someone else who has the app, its in the ticket options (as long as its a mobile only ticket). I've used it before when I bought a Field Day ticket off someone.

[Migraine]

This was mentioned in Prime Minister's Questions today

'Conservative MP Nigel Adams asks about ticket touts, wondering what the government can do to stop the sale of tickets for inflated prices. 

Theresa May says the Department for Culture, Media and Sport is shortly going to respond to a report on the issue, and says the government wants to step in when the market is not working.'

 

I don't hold out much hope given some of the things that have been said in the past about not interfering with a free market.