The Dirty Independence Question

[kaosmark2]

So, you think I should vote no & wait for a better independence to come along?

Do you think it impossible that Salmond's pseudo-independence could actually make Scotland effectively a vassal? Whether to Westminster or to Murdoch I'm not sure, but what I am sure of is that the "independence" proposed is something that gives power to him, and not to the people of Scotland.

[eFestivals]

Do you think it impossible that Salmond's pseudo-independence could actually make Scotland effectively a vassal? Whether to Westminster or to Murdoch I'm not sure, but what I am sure of is that the "independence" proposed is something that gives power to him, and not to the people of Scotland.

I was highly amused at all the comments from yes-ers about Murdoch after he tweeted something in advance of that poll result.

Amongst everything else that was said, there was zero realisation that Salmond is in Murdoch's pocket at least as much as anyone at Westminster has ever been. The comments tended to say something like "at least he'll never have that hold on Holyrood".

[Lizzim]

To be pedantic, none of the financial institutions have said anything of the sort. It is just Peston's opinion. On saying that chances are he will be correct. I can't see jobs being impacted in the short term as I imagine it will be a legal change. To all intents and purposes the banks are run from down south anyway.

I could be wrong of course but this is where I am likely to be most impacted personally.

[russycarps]

How hard is it to get Glastonbury international tickets?

Edited September 8, 2014 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

To be pedantic, none of the financial institutions have said anything of the sort. It is just Peston's opinion.

Plenty of financial institutions have said they'll strongly consider moving south if their business is impacted.

Peston is saying it's more than his 'opinion'. He even goes so far as to say he's checked and double checked.

Of course, it might be bollocks, but it's probably not. There's perfectly sound and reasonable business reasons why RBS would need to announce a move south the day after a yes vote.

On saying that chances are he will be correct. I can't see jobs being impacted in the short term as I imagine it will be a legal change. To all intents and purposes the banks are run from down south anyway.

It depends who you're talking about for where most of the jobs of a company is.

And given that the actions taken by staff will have to be regulated under UK law to have UK LoLR status, those actions will need to be taken from within the UK in many cases - so there's plenty of reasons to think that it'll be more than a change of brass plate.

But as I said anyway, the impact is not really the jobs even tho the jobs are very significant. It's the tax revenue these companies represent, and which are massive in the good times (and which are included within Alex's numbers, don't forget). 90% of those revenues will be heading south.

Do remember that Scotland's financial sector employs more people than the oil sector, and accounts for a bigger share of GDP. We're not talking about something insignificant.

I could be wrong of course but this is where I am likely to be most impacted personally.

Ahhh, there's impacts you can easily see and then there's the ones that you can't.

For example, today's fall in Sterling will cost you and me more from tomorrow for the imported goods that we each buy.

If the fall in Sterling continues then at some point the BoE will intervene and raise interest rates - which impact further into the price of the goods you buy (domestic as well as imports) even if you're not personally impacted via a loan you have.

Etc, etc, etc.

Ultimately, however things pans out with negotiations, these things will find a level - so I'm not particularly concerned from as personal perspective. There's a developed infrastructure with good credit and not stupid comments around where I'm sat, so things won't fall thru the floor for me.

[LJS]

So Neil, the UK subsidies Scotland and in the event of a yes vote thousand of jobs & a lots of companies will head south.

Great news for rUK you would think. Surely a good poll for yes should send the £ soaring

[LJS]

BT have peddled the following falsehoods.

We won't get operations in English hospitals (denied by English hospitals including great Ormond st.)

Our shopping will cost more (denied by Tesco & other supermarkets)

We will be stranded abroad with no consular support ( only if we are in neither the eu or the commonwealth.

That'll do off the top of my head. Although there are plenty more highly debatable claims like sir Ian wood losing 10bn barrels of oil in 6 months!

[eFestivals]

So Neil, the UK subsidies Scotland and in the event of a yes vote thousand of jobs & a lots of companies will head south.

Great news for rUK you would think. Surely a good poll for yes should send the £ soaring

The UK *does* subsidise Scotland - even Alex tells you that. As ever, you don't listen to facts.

There will definitely be jobs and companies that had south following a yes vote. It's likely that some will do even with a no vote, on the basis they think it'll come round again some time.

The last bit is you wanting the world to be as simple as you see it. If you'd engaged in something more than cheering each other on, you'd have a better idea for why the markets are going as they are.

[eFestivals]

BT have peddled the following falsehoods.

We won't get operations in English hospitals (denied by English hospitals including great Ormond st.)

You will have no right to operations in English (or Welsh, or N-Irish) hospitals. They cease to be 'your' hospitals, in case you'd not noticed.

Likewise, I suspect I'm not welcome in your hospitals just like I'm not welcome in your Uni's - unless paying a commercial fee to 'socialist' iScotland.

Our shopping will cost more (denied by Tesco & other supermarkets)

How supermarkets chose to price is up to them, but if (say) Tesco keep the extra cost of servicing Scotland within 'English' prices then they'll lose market share to a competitor that doesn't.

We will be stranded abroad with no consular support ( only if we are in neither the eu or the commonwealth.

You won't be in the EU, and you won't be in the Commonwealth - if only for a matter of hours at the best. For years at the worst.

What cross-consular arrangements you might have is down to what agreements get made with other sovereign states by iScotland.

That'll do off the top of my head. Although there are plenty more highly debatable claims like sir Ian wood losing 10bn barrels of oil in 6 months!

Oh FFS - talk about hoovering up the Nat myths.

I suggest you go back and see what he *ACTUALLY* said previously - and find out for yourself that it's all extremely consistent.

(It does take a modicum of intelligence to discern the same meaning from a not-quite identical set of words, but if this were any other subject I know you'd be capable of it. But for this? I wouldn't like to guess ).

Meanwhile, the actual amount of oil that comes ashore is lower than the 15-16Bn barrels that Wood is consistent about, so the whole thing is one big joke anyway.

Edited September 8, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

The UK *does* subsidise Scotland - even Alex tells you that. As ever, you don't listen to facts.

There will definitely be jobs and companies that had south following a yes vote. It's likely that some will do even with a no vote, on the basis they think it'll come round again some time.

The last bit is you wanting the world to be as simple as you see it. If you'd engaged in something more than cheering each other on, you'd have a better idea for why the markets are going as they are.

Or maybe the story is not as simple as you paint it.

Can you paint a story?

Is it like telling a picture?

[LJS]

Many a true word spoken in jest...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/08/scottish-independence-david-cameron-no-campaign-windows-8

[eFestivals]

Or maybe the story is not as simple as you paint it.

Can you paint a story?

Is it like telling a picture?

No bitterness at naysayers?

I've painted a picture with pain both ways, which is why you're not getting today's happenings with the pound.

Edited September 8, 2014 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

And the pound keeps going upwards despite the percentages changing slowing in yes's favour.

Proof, if ever it were needed, that every expert can have the odd hiccup on occasion

Laughable shite. ........was exactly how you described my opinion that the markets wouldn`t take well to any uncertainty. I think it`s fair to say that we now have that " uncertainty " as YES sit on NO`s shoulder. There are some who say the £ could lose up to 5% in the event of a YES vote. They may of course be wrong as well. My long held view that I have expressed on here loads is that there is a lot of guesswork going on from both sides and very few facts.

You had plenty more comments like PMSL and wee laughing icons during our we blether about market reaction but it`s fair to say we have all made the odd mistake on here

My biggest mistake ( along with many many others ) was believing that Better Together couldn`t possibly make such an arse of things that YES could get this anywhere near close.

[LJS]

No bitterness at naysayers?

I've painted a picture with pain both ways, which is why you're not getting today's happenings with the pound.

I don't do bitterness.

[Comfy Bean]

This should make us all shudder...........

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746282/Panicking-Tory-MPs-plot-deal-Ukip-demand-Farage-Deputy-PM.html

[eFestivals]

Proof, if ever it were needed, that every expert can have the odd hiccup on occasion

Laughable shite. ........was exactly how you described my opinion that the markets wouldn`t take well to any uncertainty.

Eh? I said markets LOVE uncertainty. If there's certainty, there's no market.

There are some who say the £ could lose up to 5% in the event of a YES vote.

they might well be right too. It's about what i've always expected.

It's the exact reason why one of the claims for a CU as "good for England" is false. The rUK loses the value of the oil to its own balance of payments whether or not there's a CU, and it's something that has to be dealt with.

It's easier for rUK to deal with that via a currency devaluation (done by the markets, much like is happening now) than it is to do anything when Scottish trade is holding up the currency's value.

But if you think 5% devaluation is bad, just check out the costs of currency creation.

And anyway, 5%? The pound has risen by more than that in the last year, it's no biggie, and it's good for job creation.

[eFestivals]

This should make us all shudder...........

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746282/Panicking-Tory-MPs-plot-deal-Ukip-demand-Farage-Deputy-PM.html

It would, if it meant anything.

There's little chance that the tories will win the election, and UKIP won't get more than 5 seats.

Tho I'm sure it's the sort of story Nats will love to parade in front of the mindless just as they loved putting the knife into Alex's bessie mate Rupert only yesterday.

Edited September 8, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

PS: of course, yes-ers might help the tories along to victory - via the loss of Scottish seats perhaps, but more likely thru a dose of England's own fear as the country changes significantly.

Which isn't going to help Salmond or iScotland, if it were to happen (polling by constituencies says that it won't, luckily for iScotland).

[LJS]

"Scottish independence: Brown sets out more powers timetable"

Ooh, great a timetable, that'll be a gamechanger!

[Comfy Bean]

"Scottish independence: Brown sets out more powers timetable"

Ooh, great a timetable, that'll be a gamechanger!

I`m sure, like me mate, you will have your doubts about all these last minute promises.

As you said earlier, AFTER 1000`s have already voted. Not to mention these promises are being made by a back bench member of the opposition ?!?!? Oh and where is Darling ?

[Comfy Bean]

It would, if it meant anything.

There's little chance that the tories will win the election, and UKIP won't get more than 5 seats.

Neil I agree with you ......but.....after the clusterfuck that we have seen in recent weeks by Labour MP`s would you put the house on it.

[Comfy Bean]

You will have no right to operations in English (or Welsh, or N-Irish) hospitals. They cease to be 'your' hospitals, in case you'd not noticed.

Likewise, I suspect I'm not welcome in your hospitals just like I'm not welcome in your Uni's - unless paying a commercial fee to 'socialist' iScotland.

Would suggest you may want to look into the hospital bit. I`ll give you a clue, both our countries already have citizens residing or travelling across the border or abroad who require medical attention. Not only will you be most welcome in our country ( should you get past Millibands armed gaurds ) you will also be welcome to receive any treatment as required. Financial arrangements already in place to cover this as I understand it. If you are heading up then keep an eye out for any Russians marching on our borders.

I know your not buying into the socialist bit which is fair enough. We`ve all been over it a few times on here. What we do know is that Scotland will :

Abolish the bedroom tax.

Remove Trident weapons of mass destruction.

Offer free care to the elderly

Offer free prescriptions to the ill

Offer free further education to the young ( and old )

and now in the latest addition " Bairns not bombs " free childcare to help people get back to work.

An iScotland will also ensure that we get to govern ourselves. I still get confused that so many of the good folks on here, some of whom don`t actually live in Scotland, would be so desperate to deny us that " right ". I honestly don`t get how anyone would think it fair that a country votes for one thing but has another " winner " forced upon them. Now we have a chance to change that for future generations plenty seem to be adamant that we should vote to deny ourselves the right to get the Government we actually vote for

The fact that at a stroke we would be removing the possibility of any Tory or UKIP influenced Government on our citizens is of course another massive bonus.

Edited September 8, 2014 by comfortablynumb1910

[lost]

I know your not buying into the socialist bit which is fair enough. We`ve all been over it a few times on here. What we do know is that Scotland will :

Abolish the bedroom tax.

Remove Trident weapons of mass destruction.

Offer free care to the elderly

Offer free prescriptions to the ill

Offer free further education to the young ( and old )

and now in the latest addition " Bairns not bombs " free childcare to help people get back to work.

An iScotland will also ensure that we get to govern ourselves. I still get confused that so many of the good folks on here, some of whom don`t actually live in Scotland, would be so desperate to deny us that " right ". I honestly don`t get how anyone would think it fair that a country votes for one thing but has another " winner " forced upon them. Now we have a chance to change that for future generations plenty seem to be adamant that we should vote to deny ourselves the right to get the Government we actually vote for

The fact that at a stroke we would be removing the possibility of any Tory or UKIP influenced Government on our citizens is of course another massive bonus.

The bit I don't understand which I'm hoping someone can explain to me is Scotland already has tax raising powers from the 1998 Scotland act which would allow it to fully role back the coalition cuts and fund the majority of this stuff already. If Scotland is such a socialist country as being claimed why hasn't the SNP already done this? Surely if everyone is correct it would of lead to a massive boost for the SNP in the polls and the yes/no vote would be clear cut?

[Comfy Bean]

I hope yes win at this point... I think besides the issue of the Military / Trident relocation etc I don't see any real downside to the rUK....

Be quite nice to see Scots wipe their own arses for once. Sick of the xenophobic rehrotic coming out of the yes campaign.

You`ll be glad to hear that Edwina Currie agrees with you mate. She is " fed up funding the extravagant Scottish lifestyle "

[Comfy Bean]

The bit I don't understand which I'm hoping someone can explain to me is Scotland already has tax raising powers from the 1998 Scotland act which would allow it to fully role back the coalition cuts and fund the majority of this stuff already. If Scotland is such a socialist country as being claimed why hasn't the SNP already done this? Surely if everyone is correct it would of lead to a massive boost for the SNP in the polls and the yes/no vote would be clear cut?

The Scottish Govt already allocate cash back on to everyones Housing Benefit where they have lost money ( weekly ) due to the " bedroom tax " deduction being applied. It can be as much as a disgusting 25% ( weekly ) I`m not sure they can do anything else on the UK governments Wefare " reforms " if thats what you mean by coalition cuts mate ? I`m also not sure if I`m maybe mis-understanding your last bit on " everyone is correct " but the majority of the stuff I listed is already in place and led to the SNP winning our last election by a bigger than expected margin.

The childcare one is a new initiative that has only been announced recently I think under " Bairns not bombs ". As you know, we can only remove trident with a YES vote.