The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

Yes that is right. But I think it is also fair to say that a YES vote, for a generation atleast, would mean removing the prospect of a Tory Govt - which we have just now, or a Government that was being influenced by UKIP which " could " be coming down the road.

The part you have highlighted was only really an after thought at the end of that post. I was mostly wanting to point out that YES would mean the removal of Trident and the bedroom tax.

Was that the same bedroom tax that 4 out of 6 SNP MP's acted in support of earlier this week?

The SNP MP's who don't want it abolished?

Good luck with that.

[eFestivals]

Just to clarify, are we now saying that the shift in momentum and the dramatic changes in the polls are all down to a line said by Darling during a tv debate and people clapping ?

It appears to be, yup. Can you point at anything else for the sudden big movement?

Is this also why everyone is heading up tomorrow ?

Nope, they're doing that to try and talk some sense to you.

But as Alex has said, their mere presence will increase the yes vote - thus proving either the anti-intellectual element are going to win the day, or that the motivations for voting yes for many pan out as simple hatred of England.

Where is Darling and why is Boris not coming. To think we were laughing at Farage and the Orange Order coming at the weekend. You could not make this up. 24 hours after Gordon announced a "timetable " we are no further forward on what powers he would need a timetable to introduce... not to mention how Gordon has any powers to introduce powers in the first place. People have already voted ffs.

Hey, don't go making the mistake of thinking that those who reference facts support the no campaign.

But you already have. As Alex has told you to think, anyone voting no is a tory. He might as well have said all true Scots will vote yes.

[eFestivals]

I realise from where you guys darn sarff are sitting the one liner from Darling " Of course you can use the pound" & the reaction to it, may seem a bit bizarre.

Unfortunately (for the no campaign) they had printed and distributed 10's of 1000's of leaflets categorically stating we couldn't use the pound - some of them went on to say we would be forced to use the Euro.

They constantly plugged the "vote yes & lose the pound" line.

So these words from darling exposed the lie at the heart of their campaign. And as with so much else in the no campaign it was a lie they didn't need to tell. If they'd told the truth they might even have had Salmond in more trouble on Currency.

But as with virtually the whole campaign they totally blew it.

Yep, I'm aware of the poor wording of the no campaign.

Sadly, not so many yes voters are, and think that "using the pound" means no chances and no heavy impact onto iScotland.

Ah well, Scottish choices, Scottish consequences.

Even now after all the trumpeted new powers, it transpires there is virtually nothing new & the 3 UK parties cannot even agree on what these alleged powers should be.

What a bunch of diddies.

Me, I've very happy it's a fuck up, and so are the majority in rUK by the looks of things.

We'd prefer you to vote yes.

[eFestivals]

I'd appreciate a link to your source, Neil

I can't find this in the labarynth of GERS figures.

There is no one source.

It takes a bit of brain effort, and a bit of work. Is it Scotland that's shy of that or just the yes campaign?

It's out there. If the yes sources are all so good, how come you don't know it?

(just so you know, those numbers aren't from 'no', they're the work of people who care about facts more than WoS do).

But hey, as I can't give you an easy link, you'll just brush it off and pretend it's false.

[eFestivals]

Here's another bloody idiot who says Scotland is likely to get into the EU

Oh but he's only the former president of the European parliament

Does the president of the European parliament set Scotland's EU agenda? Nope.

Does the European parliament set Scotland's EU agenda? Nope.

Does the president of the European Commission set Scotland's EU agenda? Nope.

Does the European Commission set Scotland's EU agenda? Nope.

Care to take a stab at what does?

[LJS]

There is no one source.

It takes a bit of brain effort, and a bit of work. Is it Scotland that's shy of that or just the yes campaign?

It's out there. If the yes sources are all so good, how come you don't know it?

(just so you know, those numbers aren't from 'no', they're the work of people who care about facts more than WoS do).

But hey, as I can't give you an easy link, you'll just brush it off and pretend it's false.

No, I'll believe the BBC figures thanks.

Rather than your shadowy "people who care about facts"

[LJS]

Does the president of the European parliament set Scotland's EU agenda? Nope.

Does the European parliament set Scotland's EU agenda? Nope.

Does the president of the European Commission set Scotland's EU agenda? Nope.

Does the European Commission set Scotland's EU agenda? Nope.

Care to take a stab at what does?

Politicians do matey. The chap I quoted was merely expressing an opinion. Given his experience, I would do no more than claim his opinion is just as valid as yours:)

& yes other opinions are available.

Thanx

[eFestivals]

No, I'll believe the BBC figures thanks.

Rather than your shadowy "people who care about facts"

So you'll believe the figures that don't even tie-up with what Alex has clearly stated on the SG's own website?

Talk about picking yourself the most advantageous sources.

Here's betting that when you're off to a festie you choose to believe the weather forecast that is predicting the best weather.

But hey, as I can't give you an easy link, you'll just brush it off and pretend it's false.

Edited September 10, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Politicians do matey. The chap I quoted was merely expressing an opinion. Given his experience, I would do no more than claim his opinion is just as valid as yours:)

& yes other opinions are available.

Thanx

National leaders do of the member states. ONLY those national leaders.

Care to take a stab at why matey is giving his view? He's wanting to highjack those powers for the EP, and you don't highjack anything via agreeing with the opposition.

In the midst of your own power-grab, you fail to spot a power grab. FFS.

[LJS]

So you'll believe the figures that don't even tie-up with what Alex has clearly stated on the SG's own website?

Talk about picking yourself the most advantageous sources.

Here's betting that when you're off to a festie you choose to believe the weather forecast that is predicting the best weather.

That funny, you are suggesting the beeb are pro Snp then?

The reason I am quoting their figures is because if they are skewed any way it will be in favour of no.

Anyway I can provide a link. You can't.

Na na na na na

[eFestivals]

That funny, you are suggesting the beeb are pro Snp then?

I'm saying the info on that page isn't accurate, but if you have to find a conspiracy in everything you go ahead.

The proof it's not accurate is very easy to find. Just compare what that BBC page says with what Alex says on the SG website, here:-

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2014/03/7888

The reason I am quoting their figures is because if they are skewed any way it will be in favour of no.

Anyway I can provide a link. You can't.

Na na na na na

They're skewed towards yes.

The proof is in the link I've given you in this post (just above).

If you're able to read and digest the simplest things about independence, you can find out that i'm right for yourself.

So here's betting that you never do (like you didn't last time you linked to that page and I said the same thing), so you can sleepwalk into independence with full ignorance.

Meanwhile i'm sure you agree with Alex that the three horsemen on their visit north today will sway the vote towards yes just by their very presence - thus proving a yes on anti-intelligence or simply by English hatred.

[eFestivals]

PS: the numbers I gave you are complex, and as I said they're not from a single source.

They require intelligence and effort to analyse.

Is that why you're running away from doing it yourself?

(yes, I'm trying to goad you into it, because simple truthful statements don't have to doing your own investigations, you simply believe the likes of WoS instead ).

[ThomThomDrum]

[eFestivals]

So what you're saying Thom is that there's no downside to indy? You are Alex Salmond and I claim my five pounds.

I'm quite happy for Scotland to vote itself indy. I'd much prefer it if they weren't led into doing it by a lying moron, and even better if they realised he's a lying moron.

Otherwise they're not getting what they think they're voting for, are they?

[ThomThomDrum]

So what you're saying Thom is that there's no downside to indy?

Hold yer horses there fella! I was just interjecting with some light comic relief. I was in no way entering this debate. My personal thoughts on Scottish Independence are based on nothing at all other than my gut, as im not read up on the details of it all, pros cons and otherwise. Its not really an issue that interests me too much.

The only thing I would have to say is that if Scots want it they should take it and dont be scared to go it alone. Im sure they will find their way and be grand. Many countries in the past that have done it survived and are OK.

[russycarps]

I see alex is now comparing the scottish vote to south african post-apartheid elections

and the yes voters are lapping it up

[Comfy Bean]

Hold yer horses there fella! I was just interjecting with some light comic relief. I was in no way entering this debate. My personal thoughts on Scottish Independence are based on nothing at all other than my gut, as im not read up on the details of it all, pros cons and otherwise. Its not really an issue that interests me too much.

The only thing I would have to say is that if Scots want it they should take it and dont be scared to go it alone. Im sure they will find their way and be grand. Many countries in the past that have done it survived and are OK.

It made me smile mate

My view is that this is only the first small step for Scotland. A baby step if you like !!

" Should Scotland be an Independent Country " ?

That is what we vote on next week nothing more nothing less. The SNP or King Alex the Great are not on the ballot paper. We`ve had a good blether on here about our hopes that come the 2nd general election ( if we vote that we should be an independent country ) how we ALL want to see a new..old..Labour party capable of holding Nicola and the SNP to account. That would give Labour 6 years to get their house in order. Looks to me like they would need every minute of that 6 years. I`m also hoping Team Scotlands ( ) Patrick Harvie of the Greens will be rewarded with a more prominent role for giving up the last 2 years of his life to speak for independence in about every town hall and School in Scotland. He disagrees with Eck the masterful on everything from Oil, NATO, Corp Tax but in the last big live debate on STV Salmond gave him the job of delivering the final 2 minute summary speech even though Sturgeon was sitting beside him on the panel. He has done as much as anyone to bring Labour voters over to YES.

[Comfy Bean]

I see alex is now comparing the scottish vote to south african post-apartheid elections

and the yes voters are lapping it up

Morning Russy. Glad you had a good holiday sir. I think its fair to say that the old main stream media establishment types are going to bombard us ALL today with pish in this last desperate bid to save the beloved empire union. The flag above no10 and across a few English cities is a nice touch. Have you got one flying high out your window ?

Rule Brittania is the spirit of the day. Not all YES voters will lap it up as you know and I honestly doubt many of us Jocks will be fooled by this. I am honestly amazed that Dave is here. Perhaps he will pop back up again at the end of the week with Nigel. Nothing would surprise me now, even the Queen is getting drawn in.

On a more serious point. Whats your own view on this timetable they are all banging about in relation to the fact that the campaign has been rolling on for 2 years and many many folk have already voted. If there are people like Edwina who are " fed up funding Scotlands extravagant lifestyle " how do the good folks down South feel about Dave and the boys offering us more ( allegedly ) ?

[russycarps]

Morning Russy. Glad you had a good holiday sir. I think its fair to say that the old main stream media establishment types are going to bombard us ALL today with pish in this last desperate bid to save the beloved empire union. The flag above no10 and across a few English cities is a nice touch. Have you got one flying high out your window ?

Rule Brittania is the spirit of the day. Not all YES voters will lap it up as you know and I honestly doubt many of us Jocks will be fooled by this. I am honestly amazed that Dave is here. Perhaps he will pop back up again at the end of the week with Nigel. Nothing would surprise me now, even the Queen is getting drawn in.

On a more serious point. Whats your own view on this timetable they are all banging about in relation to the fact that the campaign has been rolling on for 2 years and many many folk have already voted. If there are people like Edwina who are " fed up funding Scotlands extravagant lifestyle " how do the good folks down South feel about Dave and the boys offering us more ( allegedly ) ?

Yeh I was only teasing about the apartheid thing, I saw it was a daily fail headline so took it with a large pinch of salt.

Well I live and work in London and can honestly say there is barely a word spoken about it. The impression I get though, from not much information at all, is that the south english view is a mix of apathy/edwinas view point/fear of being stuck with the tories forever and a feeling of being insulted that the scots could spurn us.

The magic timetable is a lie. If I was an undecided voter it would sway me to vote Yes probably. And if that didnt, seeing the arrogant party leaders now squirming their way up the M1 would certainly see me do so.

My personal view is that you are making a mistake going independent as I genuinely think you will be worse of economically and socially, that the poor will get poorer and the rich richer (both sides of the border).

HOWEVER

The once in a lifetime opportunity to say "fuck you" to the establishment would be mightily hard to resist....and gets harder and harder every time I read the latest thing dim Dave or emptyhead Ed say.

George galloway is a passionate No voter, wouldnt his words have more impact up there than the oxbridge tits?

I've also got a £13 bet on a Yes win.

Edited September 10, 2014 by russycarps

[Comfy Bean]

EHIC cards carried by iScottish citizens are worthless until iScotland is a member of EHIC.

It's a good job you don't run a business, i suspect you'd accept monopoly money.

Fair enough Neil. From your comments that I quoted yesterday I mistakenly thought you were talking shit about you not being welcome in our hospitals and how neither of us were entitled to free medical care when travelling in Europe or across the border. You are now moving this into a potential future situation when I understood we were talking about the current situation ( from your posts ).

When I brought up EHIC, as I said yesterday I already have a card, I was only bringing it up in an attempt to highlight the excellent scheme available ( and already paid for ) to us all.

I`m actually not bad at monopoly but in fairness my kids are young.

[Comfy Bean]

Yeh I was only teasing about the apartheid thing, I saw it was a daily fail headline so took it with a large pinch of salt.

Well I live and work in London and can honestly say there is barely a word spoken about it. The impression I get though, from not much information at all, is that the south english view is a mix of apathy/edwinas view point/fear of being stuck with the tories forever and a feeling of being insulted that the scots could spurn us.

The magic timetable is a lie. If I was an undecided voter it would sway me to vote Yes probably. And if that didnt, seeing the arrogant party leaders now squirming their way up the M1 would certainly see me do so.

My personal view is that you are making a mistake going independent as I genuinely think you will be worse of economically and socially, that the poor will get poorer and the rich richer (both sides of the border).

HOWEVER

The once in a lifetime opportunity to say "fuck you" to the establishment would be mightily hard to resist....and gets harder and harder every time I read the latest thing dim Dave or emptyhead Ed say.

George galloway is a passionate No voter, wouldnt his words have more impact up there than the oxbridge tits?

I've also got a £13 bet on a Yes win.

I agree with every word of that mate although I have no cash down as I can`t quite convince myself that this will happen. I`m shit at betting and would only curse it. I hope you got on a while ago and got a good price.

Interesting point on Galloway. I have always enjoyed listening to him and have in the past agreed with him on alot of things. Nowadays he seems to be more into self promotion ( thats been my view for a while and not just since the Indy stuff - see Big Brother ). I would need to look into it but I`m not sure he holds the same view on other countries across the globe when it comes to Independence.

Your right though that more people in Scotland would listen to Gorgeous way before these 3 fuds that have turned up this morning.

Has anyone seen Darling ? His knighthood and cosy life in the Lords are looking most unlikely whatever happens now. I still wish Boris had came up he could have challenged Salmond to a game of whiff whaff - winner takes all.

[lost]

Has anyone seen any estimates for the costs involved in splitting public bodies like the NHS and inland revenue in half?

I'm also guessing these costs will be internally funded so effectively redirected from front line services whilst its taking place?

The only one I found was half a trillion which sounds completely ridiculous..

[russycarps]

I agree with every word of that mate although I have no cash down as I can`t quite convince myself that this will happen. I`m shit at betting and would only curse it. I hope you got on a while ago and got a good price.

Interesting point on Galloway. I have always enjoyed listening to him and have in the past agreed with him on alot of things. Nowadays he seems to be more into self promotion ( thats been my view for a while and not just since the Indy stuff - see Big Brother ). I would need to look into it but I`m not sure he holds the same view on other countries across the globe when it comes to Independence.

Your right though that more people in Scotland would listen to Gorgeous way before these 3 fuds that have turned up this morning.

Has anyone seen Darling ? His knighthood and cosy life in the Lords are looking most unlikely whatever happens now. I still wish Boris had came up he could have challenged Salmond to a game of whiff whaff - winner takes all.

I suppose gorgeous could never be condoned by the tories/labour so they wouldnt give him a platform. What I have read from him did make sense though, though I havent read any of his stuff for a while.

My bet appears to be a winner (only got 5-1 sadly, I was convinced no was going to walk it for ages) however I have a nagging doubt that this vote will be rigged. If the American presidential election can be fixed, then this can be too. There are a lot of vested interests in the UK remaining united, and I have a funny feeling skullduggery will play a part.

50.1% win for the No would not surprise me.

If yes wins I do expect there to be some kind of anger down south though. No one likes being dumped by their girlfriend do they?

Even those of us who think they dont care one way or another will get a twinge when they see all the independence street parties I reckon.....

[Comfy Bean]

Has anyone seen any estimates for the costs involved in splitting public bodies like the NHS and inland revenue in half?

I'm also guessing these costs will be internally funded so effectively redirected from front line services whilst its taking place?The only one I found was half a trillion which sounds completely ridiculous..

Health is already devolved mate. We have Boards running the show across Scotland where England have Trusts so not even a logo change required in my opinion. I would imagine that HMRC would continue in the short term perhaps for a fee but I think most of the work for Scottish tax is already happening in East Kilbride.

We`ve had a few chats on here about the different way the NHS is run North and South. Neil won`t hear a word on privatisation in the English NHS as he rightly points out that patient care is free at the point of service. Virgin Care and many many others do seem to be " investing " in the NHS in England. Plenty links have been provided on here already to a number of Private Healthcare providers who " won " contracts from NHS England and have Labour and Tory types as consultants, shareholders etc. Turned out Darling was paid to speak at one of their dinner things.

SKY had " understood " that Dave was planning a walk and talkabout ( what the fuck is that ) but he has now decided to speak indoors to an " invited audience "

Just been watching the SKY news coverage. Atleast I admit I am totally biased. Dear o dear. Kate ? keeps bringing up that shouty NO fella who got " hit " by an egg. I`ll start keeping count.

Edited September 10, 2014 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

Update from SKY. They can hardy contain their glee with some breaking news......

The chief executive fella from BP has just come out in support of Better Together No Thanks. Don`t expect he will be the last today.