The Dirty Independence Question

[kaosmark2]

For me, one of the great strengths of Scotland is the way we accept & integrate people from all over the world. No right wing, racist movement has ever had any significant success in Scotland. This is not to say we do not have racism & racists - of course we do - my only claim is that they have never been of any great significance. This contrast with England where fearing, distrusting & blaming immigrants is often a votewinner.

Scotland hasn't blamed immigrants because the politicians and media there have chosen the English as the hateful others to create a divide with. It's just the same degree of "Us vs Them", creating fear, distrust, and blaming foreigners. The only difference is the nature of the foreigners.

In a subsequent post you've mentioned Glasgow being accepting of immigrants and multi-cultural. That's EXACTLY the same with all cities in the UK. The difference is that while you have some clashes in poor areas in English cities being between different cultures, in Glasgow (as has been mentioned since), it's between different sects of Christianity.

Do you think the Scottish people are fundamentally superior to the English (to the degree of genetically), do you think they're hugely better educated (suggesting the Barnett formula favours vastly excessively), do you think the media, business and politicians are less inclined to create divides, or - and this is the one I strongly believe - do you think you've fallen for bullshit coming from Scottish politicians proposing independence?

I can't see any other potential reason why the Scottish - with a phenomenally similar culture, education system, society, etc. - would be more welcoming and less racist than the English.

[lost]

And yet there are two very well known communities of people in Glasgow, who's heritage comes from different takes on Christianity, who are world renowned for not getting along...

This is what worries me the most that after the result will both sides accept it? Worrying parallels to N.Ireland and a population that seems to be 50% / 50% split between unionists and those that want independence.

[LJS]

Do you think the Scottish people are fundamentally superior to the English (to the degree of genetically), do you think they're hugely better educated (suggesting the Barnett formula favours vastly excessively), do you think the media, business and politicians are less inclined to create divides, or - and this is the one I strongly believe - do you think you've fallen for bullshit coming from Scottish politicians proposing independence?

no, no, no, no

You will struggle to find me saying anything about Scots being better in any way than anyone else.

I believe Scotland started to diverge significantly from the rest of the UK & particularly the bit at the bottom right under Thatcher's regime - her cult of the individual and rejection of society never struck a chord here except in small pockets. The legacy of Thatcher still looms large over UK politics - she not only changed the Tory party, she was also largely responsible for a fundamental transformation of the Labour party. With polls suggesting around 30% of Labour supporters intending to vote yes, it would be reasonable to suggest that neither of the main UK parties are in tune with what the people of Scotland want. Neil often characterises the rise of the SNP as being a sort of protest vote: now I think that is something of an oversimplification, but there is a grain of truth in it - we are not getting what we want from the main parties, so we look for something different. In 2003 that resulted in 6 green MSP's & 7 for The Scottosh Socialist Party. In the longer term, when you have given the liblabtories enough chances, the obvious next vote is SNP.

on a side note - I am well aware of the sectarian problem - indeed if you could be bothered looking back, you will find that I was the first person to raise it in this thread. Sectarianism is a scourge but it has undeniably declined in my lifetime & I am pleased to say successive Scottish governments of all varieties have shown a commitment to tackling it.

Edited September 6, 2014 by LJS

[kaosmark2]

no, no, no, no

You will struggle to find me saying anything about Scots being better in any way than anyone else.

I believe Scotland started to diverge significantly from the rest of the UK & particularly the bit at the bottom right under Thatcher's regime - her cult of the individual and rejection of society never struck a chord here except in small pockets. The legacy of Thatcher still looms large over UK politics - she not only changed the Tory party, she was also largely responsible for a fundamental transformation of the Labour party. With polls suggesting around 30% of Labour supporters intending to vote yes, it would be reasonable to suggest that neither of the main UK parties are in tune with what the people of Scotland want. Neil often characterises the rise of the SNP as being a sort of protest vote: now I think that is something of an oversimplification, but there is a grain of truth in it - we are not getting what we want from the main parties, so we look for something different. In 2003 that resulted in 6 green MSP's & 7 for The Scottosh Socialist Party. In the longer term, when you have given the liblabtories enough chances, the obvious next vote is SNP.

on a side note - I am well aware of the sectarian problem - indeed if you could be bothered looking back, you will find that I was the first person to raise it in this thread. Sectarianism is a scourge but it has undeniably declined in my lifetime & I am pleased to say successive Scottish governments of all varieties have shown a commitment to tackling it.

Fair enough. I don't have much of a problem with any of what you've said (exc. the "Scotland rejects Thatcherism more, but we've covered that before), however....

You haven't answered the actual question. What makes you think the Scots are less racist and prejudiced and inclined to "us vs them" attitudes than the English?

[LJS]

Fair enough. I don't have much of a problem with any of what you've said (exc. the "Scotland rejects Thatcherism more, but we've covered that before), however....

You haven't answered the actual question. What makes you think the Scots are less racist and prejudiced and inclined to "us vs them" attitudes than the English?

First I'd like to make clear that I don't think England is a particularly racist country - I hope I haven't given the impression that I do - in the great scheme of things it's a pretty tolerant place - indeed, one of the remarkable things about this referendum is that it is happening at all, freely (ish) granted by the Westminster government. If Scotland does gain its independence it will be fairly unusual in doing so which pretty much no blood spilled.

Why do I think Scotland is a wee bit more tolerant, a wee bit more inclusive?

Partly observation & experience, partly the way we consistently vote for more "left wing" parties than England (particularly the home counties) & partly that there has never been any significant far right influence in Scottish politics. (I know Ukip one a seat in the European elections but with a much smaller share of the vote than they got in England!)

We seem to "get" Europe a bit better than the English which , I think, is at least partly because we are more disposed towards co-operation & sharing & less towards isolation. This may seem at first glance to conflict with a yes vote - but I don't think we live in a world where true stand alone Independence makes sense - running your own affairs & deciding to what extent you share responsibilities with others does (to me)

I appreciate that there are areas of England where you could make similar claims, but that's not really the topic under discussion.

Edited September 6, 2014 by LJS

[kaosmark2]

First I'd like to make clear that I don't think England is a particularly racist country - I hope I haven't given the impression that I do - in the great scheme of things it's a pretty tolerant place - indeed, one of the remarkable things about this referendum is that it is happening at all, freely (ish) granted by the Westminster government. If Scotland does gain its independence it will be fairly unusual in doing so which pretty much no blood spilled.

Why do I think Scotland is a wee bit more tolerant, a wee bit more inclusive?

Partly observation & experience, partly the way we consistently vote for more "left wing" parties than England (particularly the home counties) & partly that there has never been any significant far right influence in Scottish politics. (I know Ukip one a seat in the European elections but with a much smaller share of the vote than they got in England!)

We seem to "get" Europe a bit better than the English which , I think, is at least partly because we are more disposed towards co-operation & sharing & less towards isolation. This may seem at first glance to conflict with a yes vote - but I don't think we live in a world where true stand alone Independence makes sense - running your own affairs & deciding to what extent you share responsibilities with others does (to me)

I appreciate that there are areas of England where you could make similar claims, but that's not really the topic under discussion.

Yeah, I was only saying that you're suggesting Scots are relatively different. On the international scale I doubt you'd try and claim there's much.

We've had the "right wing influence" argument before. I disagree with the relevance of it and think it's inaccurate, your perception says otherwise.

I really don't think Scots are more Euro-happy than the English. The home counties are as unrepresentative of the English as anti-English Scots are of Scotland. They're noticeable, but like the "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells", it's just that they shout louder. I genuinely think your average jock is just the same as your average joe in terms of political understanding and inclination.

[LJS]

Yeah, I was only saying that you're suggesting Scots are relatively different. On the international scale I doubt you'd try and claim there's much.

We've had the "right wing influence" argument before. I disagree with the relevance of it and think it's inaccurate, your perception says otherwise.

I really don't think Scots are more Euro-happy than the English. The home counties are as unrepresentative of the English as anti-English Scots are of Scotland. They're noticeable, but like the "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells", it's just that they shout louder. I genuinely think your average jock is just the same as your average joe in terms of political understanding and inclination.

I don't doubt you're right. The problem is that disgruntled of Tunbridge wells has a disproportionate influence on the policies of the main parties. As does bitter of basildon & extremely gruntled of Eton!

[kaosmark2]

I don't doubt you're right. The problem is that disgruntled of Tunbridge wells has a disproportionate influence on the policies of the main parties. As does bitter of basildon & extremely gruntled of Eton!

Not arguing that, but if Scotland becomes independent and no longer gets to vote on UK policies, but is still linked via currency or open borders or whatever, then they'll have an even greater influence and the Scottish won't be able to dictate at all

[LJS]

Not arguing that, but if Scotland becomes independent and no longer gets to vote on UK policies, but is still linked via currency or open borders or whatever, then they'll have an even greater influence and the Scottish won't be able to dictate at all

It'll be our choice. We can choose to have our own currency, we can choose to accept or reject whatever conditions rUK puts on a common travel area.

[lost]

Daily mail shit stirring or the real story on the ground?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2745565/Savage-racism-turning-Scotland-no-zone-English.html

[LJS]

Daily mail shit stirring or the real story on the ground?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2745565/Savage-racism-turning-Scotland-no-zone-English.html

Ok, where to start?

It says the porters made the news in Scotland this week. Not any news I can find!

It says Jim Murphy was pelted with eggs...he had one egg slapped on his back.

For further comments on this story, I suggest you visit the Facebook page, "English Scots for yes"

[LJS]

I see Scotland as largely a drain on the UK.... I don't really want them to go as they offer a lot to the military, to our culture, to our identity, and in the end we are all British and you take the rough with the smooth and all that...

But they have a great deal and I find the rhetoric coming out of Scotland as they are some sort of victim as fucking insulting to be frank. they already get more funding per head and they have more local powers than us. Yet the moan and fucking moan. And now they want more power with none of the responsibility.

Fuck that shit!

Hopefully they will vote yes and go.... Or they will vote no and one of the parties grows some balls and decides to make a stance against bettering their already good deal... As they would be attractive to vote for. I can see the English starting to harden to this love in with the idea of giving Scotland more. It's going to get political going forward from our side of the border I feel. I hope!

Barry, the previously offered seat by the fire is withdrawn.

You may now have a place on the fire!!!

[LJS]

Yeah go to a Celtic and rangers old firm game and marvel at the love and tolerance.... You're talking shit...

I've been to one, have you?

How's the atmosphere at Liverpool v. Man U. games? Do they exchange flowers with each other?

Or Spurs v. Arsenal?

I am perfectly placed to comment on the Rangers Celtic thing as I am from Glasgow & support neither ( I support Glasgow's oldest team) The overwhelming majority of Rangers v Celtic stuff is magnificent banter. Yes there are nutters but then Scottish clubs were never banned from Europe because of our nutters.

[LJS]

Barry

this is for you

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=535426709832625&set=a.189622151079751.38546.144502598925040&type=1&ref=nf

[LJS]

the word on the tweet is that there may be 2 polls tomorrow

YouGov in Sunday Times - very close - possibly even a yes lead

& maybe Panelbase possibly in Sunday Herald - perhaps showing no ahead but by a small margin

These are very much rumours but if true would be quite remarkable & hard to interpret as it would have "no friendly" pollster showing better result for yes than "yes-friendly" pollster

As I say only vague rumours at the moment.

We live in interesting times

[wee_insomniac]

If you guys haven't seen this yet, you should... Sheer genius. I love the DC bit at the end

[Comfy Bean]

Fair enough. I don't have much of a problem with any of what you've said (exc. the "Scotland rejects Thatcherism more, but we've covered that before), however....

You haven't answered the actual question. What makes you think the Scots are less racist and prejudiced and inclined to "us vs them" attitudes than the English?

Think that LJS has probably covered this now in his usual thoughtful and fair handed, honest way so not really much to add. I think maybe us Scots are maybe more inclined " To see oursels as ithers see us ".

My own view is that it would be fair to say that there are a % of idiots on both sides of the border and with England having a higher population then it follows as a fact that they will have more eejits. I was thinking about what you said earlier about the " international scale ". My brother and a few of my mates are over in Germany as I type for the footy. There are officially 5000 scotland fans over but will be nearer double that in the stadium tomorrow night. My mates are all in the " home " end having got tickets from german mates they have met up with over the years at club and international football matches. The atmosphere tonight in Dortmund will be incredible. One big party with fans of both teams partying together. Do you think it would have been the same atmosphere if England had been playing Germany tomorrow night ?

[Comfy Bean]

One more just to finish off

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_European_Cup_Winners'_Cup_Final

You guys started it all

So much for never been banned...

Shock horror... Yes voter picking and choosing his facts

Even by your standards Baz this is ridiculous whataboutery and an argument that you cannot win.

In fact it is an insult to arguements. Carry on though if it makes you happy

[Comfy Bean]

I am perfectly placed to comment on the Rangers Celtic thing as I am from Glasgow & support neither ( I support Glasgow's oldest team) The overwhelming majority of Rangers v Celtic stuff is magnificent banter. Yes there are nutters but then Scottish clubs were never banned from Europe because of our nutters.

Are we talking the harry wraggs ? If so an excellent choice. I took my kids to their first ever away game there a few years back ( think you won 4-0 and we got relegated that season ) as they did and still do let kids under 16 in free. I know we have both commented on here before about the horrendous sectarian problem we have where I am in the West. It`s only been small steps but atleast the SNP are trying to do something about it with new legislation hence the reason both tribes have added songs about Alex Salmond to their vile anthems. Should someone tell Barry about the Union Jack flag waving " fans " he`s on about or maybe give him the list of their songs of choice : God save the queen, rule brittania etc.

Although I would rather it wasn`t happening, the orange walk and Farage weekend are sure to bring plenty of eejits out onto the streets and will almost certainly be a good day for YES votes. The bbc are saying they will not cover it. Did they also avoid the NHS privatisation march in London today ? Did`nt see it on Cooncil telly earlier.

Edit to add : I suspected Baz would have you on the Rangers ban . I think it`s best to just leave it at that though. When he thinks it through he will realise what you meant and that he`s not well positioned on this.

Edited September 6, 2014 by comfortablynumb1910

[LJS]

He said Scottish clubs never got banned... Sorry to point out the fact that the first was a Scottish club...

Unfortunate fact

One Scottish club got banned for 1 year.

All English clubs got banned for 5 years.

[LJS]

Are we talking the harry wraggs ? If so an excellent choice. I took my kids to their first ever away game there a few years back ( think you won 4-0 and we got relegated that season ) as they did and still do let kids under 16 in free. I know we have both commented on here before about the horrendous sectarian problem we have where I am in the West. It`s only been small steps but atleast the SNP are trying to do something about it with new legislation hence the reason both tribes have added songs about Alex Salmond to their vile anthems. Should someone tell Barry about the Union Jack flag waving " fans " he`s on about or maybe give him the list of their songs of choice : God save the queen, rule brittania etc.

Although I would rather it wasn`t happening, the orange walk and Farage weekend are sure to bring plenty of eejits out onto the streets and will almost certainly be a good day for YES votes. The bbc are saying they will not cover it. Did they also avoid the NHS privatisation march in London today ? Did`nt see it on Cooncil telly earlier.

Edit to add : I suspected Baz would have you on the Rangers ban . I think it`s best to just leave it at that though. When he thinks it through he will realise what you meant and that he`s not well positioned on this.

Naw, I'm no a thistle fan, they're not Scotland's oldest club.

I will refrain from further comment on the relative merits of football hooligans on either side of the border.

They are all nutters after all.

Now who's going to correctly identify the team I support?

[Comfy Bean]

Scots on tour

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/hooligans-clash-in-holland-as-groningen-and-aberdeen-fans-fight-on-the-streets-video/

Mate have you watched that link ? Seriously youtubes a massive thing. There must be something better than that to back up your stance here. What ones are meant to be scottish *

This is my last comment on this football hooligan "debate". I refer you to my original post - ridiculous whataboutery and an " arguement " that you cannot win.

* Anyone fighting at football matches is clearly an eejit whatever country they were born in.

[Comfy Bean]

Naw, I'm no a thistle fan, they're not Scotland's oldest club.

I will refrain from further comment on the relative merits of football hooligans on either side of the border.

They are all nutters after all.

Now who's going to correctly identify the team I support?

Do they play at Hampden ?

[atomised]

Queens Park?

[Comfy Bean]

Google is my friend. They do play at Hampden.