London riots

[kaosmark2]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

:petesake:

[sifi]

This isn't the first time this kind of thing has happened. I remember reading about a bunch of yobs going out and smashing up places once they'd got a bit rowdy being in the papers a while back ...

http://k-punk.abstractdynamics.org/archives/cameron-bullingdon-club.jpg

[Kowalski]

To be fair, the rich can do what they want and show that off to the poor. Not that it's an excuse to act like a dickhead.

[eFestivals]

Exactly! I don't know your situation just as you can't know exactly who these people are or their situation or indeed motivation.

Exactly not!

You don't know my situation because you know nothing about me and have no relationship with me.

I know the thinking of these kids because once I was kid in a not too dissimilar position.

But all the same I've not said "exactly who these people are or their situation or indeed motivation", but what I have said is that things like this do not happen unless people feel hopeless about their situation. They only risk losing everything because they feel they've nothing left to lose.

You can theorise all you want but in the end, you don't know and to come on here and say its all because of one thing, or all because of another.

you'd have a point if I'd done anything like that.

I repeat: why do things like this only happen when people feel hopeless?

What was Gilmour's son motivation for smashing up the senitath on that protest, was that because he has not future, no prospects, or was it simply he was bored and wanted a bit of a thrill?!

who knows, and who cares? It's f**k all to do with what happened last night.

You're probably right, it may well need that one factor to push them over the edge, it could simply be a culmination of worsening anti social behaviour over the years, combined with a more liberal view to punishment, along with a sense of entitlement, crossed with having consumerism forced upon (as Scottie suggests). Who knows, I suspect its a mish mash of it all

And so do I.

But these things never happen without a feeling of hopelessness. People don't risk what they have if they have something worth holding onto.

[sifi]

Define "rich"?

[the real new messiah]

yep, it's defo kids looking to loot. But I never thought they had it in 'em, and in the absence of anything else I applaud it.

After all, kids don't grow up with an aspiration of looting, so while it's purely criminal it's still the state of society which is bringing it about. If you give kids little hope of reaching more normal aspirations - and with UK-wide youth unemployment at 20% many people have that no-hope - then they'll find other ways of satisfying them.

Now, some will say that robbing is not the answer, and it's not. Some will say that 'normal' people don't go out on the rob but knuckle down to hard work, and that's true too. But it's still the case that enough people have that feeling of no-hope then some of them are going to resort to other means, and what we'll see is trouble on our streets.

We can carry on allowing the rich to get richer while marginalising huge chunks of society - and the result will be trouble on the streets - or we can create a fairer society and give all people hope of better times thru hard work.

The actions of people on the streets last night caused Dave Moron to cut short his very expensive holiday; the people on the streets last night might like one of those too. Until we're really "all in this together" then saying those words is seen as further incitement to take what you can by the only means you can.

[sifi]

You talk bo****ks about a lot of things, but this is the biggest bo****ks of the lot

[Kowalski]

More on the independent record warehouse fire. Absolutely tragic.

"Labels will go under"

Edited August 9, 2011 by Kowalski

[jump]

More on the independent record warehouse fire. Absolutely tragic.

"Labels will go under"

[Benj]

Exactly not!

You don't know my situation because you know nothing about me and have no relationship with me.

I know the thinking of these kids because once I was kid in a not too dissimilar position.

[Benj]

That is more about territorial / tribalism.... Although I don't deny its probably fun...

[sifi]

Apparently these poor "kids" don't have anything to do...

http://www.timeout.com/london/aroundtown/features/2892/Free_things_to_do_in_London.html

Bollocks...

[Benj]

Apparently these poor "kids" don't have anything to do...

http://www.timeout.com/london/aroundtown/features/2892/Free_things_to_do_in_London.html

Bollocks...

[eFestivals]

You talk bo****ks about a lot of things, but this is the biggest bo****ks of the lot

If I'm so wrong, then please do explain why this has happened now, and not last year, and not the year before, and not the year before that, and not the year before that, and not the year before that, and not... etc, etc, etc.

Robbing and burning can have happened any time. But it's only happened now. And you believe the smart answer is nothing at all. OK.

[lost]

If I'm so wrong, then please do explain why this has happened now, and not last year, and not the year before, and not the year before that, and not the year before that, and not the year before that, and not... etc, etc, etc.

Robbing and burning can have happened any time. But it's only happened now. And you believe the smart answer is nothing at all. OK.

[Benj]

Most the people I see on the streets in the TV coverage seem to be 16+

But hopefully this helps...

http://www.timeout.com/london/kids/features/3094/Days_out_for_teens.html

Edited August 9, 2011 by Benj

[radish]

but what I have said is that things like this do not happen unless people feel hopeless about their situation. They only risk losing everything because they feel they've nothing left to lose.

But these things never happen without a feeling of hopelessness. People don't risk what they have if they have something worth holding onto.

Edited August 9, 2011 by radish

[Benj]

I'm not sure I entirely agree particularly in this situation, with what's been going on and who has been involved. The interview with 2 girls proud of what they've done because they can do what they want and the rich can't control them - they just sound so much like a number of people I know who are symptomatic of the way large chunks of society seem to have gone. It's not that they're revolting against oppression and hopelessness, it's more that they're jealous. They don't want to have to work to get what they want, they want it given to them. They don't want better times through hard work, unless somebody else is doing the work. Not wishing to sound all daily hatemail, but I'm getting a bit fed up of some people whingeing on that they don't have what I have, but then moaning that the council won't give it to them. Not going out and getting a bucketload of qualifications to try to get some kind of foothold in the job market, not getting 2 or more jobs to earn enough money to save to be able to get somewhere to live, no, just bemoaning the fact that nobody has given them what they want.

I'm not saying everybody involved in the riots is like this, but these disturbances don't seem to have the same basis or reason behind them as, say, the riots in Brixton, St Pauls etc. in the late 70s/early 80s. I'm not saying I can sympathise with someone who riots because they feel oppressed or abused as as group, but I can understand it. I feel nothing but contempt for idiots who resort to violence and disorder as a method of getting what they want without earning it.

Yes, there is an underclass that's been created in this country (and others) and we're all to blame, although some more than others thanks very much all the bastard politicians. But it's been the shift to expectation of being given everything that is the core of the problem. Right down to the X Factor shite, too many people just take it as read that it's their right to have things, success, stardom, big tellys, a mobile 'phone, a big car, whatever. There's been a shift away from thinking for yourself and towards being told by some (rich) twat what it is you want, and accepting that as fact and waiting for it to happen.

Although there is hope - the whole twitter clean up thing is heartening. It'd be a far better result if that lead to the revolution instead of the riots themselves. 'The people' just step up and tell the politicians they've had their chance, now we're going to take over and do it ourselves. Is that anarchy in practice, allowing things to just happen? Or am I being lazy and not bothering to google the meaning of the word to check?

Well, bollocks has has been spoken, apologies. It's all shitty, hope it ends soon and that somehow something good comes of it.

[Benj]

The other side of it all, Londoners uniting to clean up Clapham Junction

http://yfrog.com/kj5oewj

[The Nal]

Its alright now, panic over. Boris is on Sky News.......

The other side of it all, Londoners uniting to clean up Clapham Junction

http://yfrog.com/kj5oewj

Edited August 9, 2011 by The Nal

[Benj]

Its my answer to the claim it is boredom... Its a bullshit explanation...

These kids don't want to engage... They can't be arsed...

[rexclark]

Well that's it all sorted, Hul Hogan's just said on Radio 5 he's gonna come over and drop some legs. That'll scare the shit out of them.

[sifi]

Should I go home now? My work is at St Pauls and my home is near Gatwick. I'm travelling by train.

[eFestivals]

I am ill informed.

you got something right anyway. Be thankful.

yes but you do not know that they feel helpless about their situation, you just assume they are because you once felt that yourself and seem unable to believe that some young kids may just smash stuff up for fun

so why have they suddenly smashed stuff up for fun this year, but not last year, and not the year before that, and not the year before that, and not the year before that, and not the year4 before that, and not .... etc, etc.???

There is a reason, even if you're blind to it.

THEY DON'T!

People often Riot simply for fun, look at football hooligansim, look at the twats at Reading/ Leeds, look at all this biffs who have taken over the recent peaceful protests in london, listen to those girls on that clip above. Are they all hopeless?

they are in a situation which goes a particular way.

These people yesterday CREATED their own situation. They're certainly not hopeless, cos they've suddenly found they have a power after all. The people at Reading are sheep, happy to pay top dollar for the near-full Gulag experience, searched every time they leave home, not sensible enough to be trusted with a can, and are happy to drink piss at ridiculous prices. It's not the same at all.

I admire your romantic ideal that this is all a massive cry out against a helpless situation and suspect that for a few it is, for a many others, like the vast amount of young kids filmed in Clapham Jumction last night, it is simply a chance to smash some shit up and get a new pair of trainees.

I've said all the way thru that for most their motivation is purely criminal.

But I've also pointed out that these things don't happen in the good times but only the bad, and particularly where the 'bad' is put most on the younger members of society (as it has been by what's happened over the last ten-ish years). There's nothing particularly identifiable about it, other than critical mass has been reached - and they can feel it, even if they don't know it. And that 'feeling it' doesn't have to all be about an individual feeling personally hopeless; it's the hopelessness that he feels around him.

On the flip side, that hopelessness is lessened by exorcising power in some manner, which is what they've just done. They've taken something back from society for themselves, they are (in their own minds) people who now count when they didn't before. It's right now, how we treat them now that they do feel engaged, which decides if we make a few hours chaos for society into a lifetime's.

Some were in their early teens for f**ks sake, they're doing it for kicks, there's not that many emos about!

Yet they weren't doing that for kicks last year, the year before, or the year before that. So what's different now?

It would be a very big fool who said that young people such as those don't today feel less positive about their future than kids of the same age would have a few years ago. That's no irrelevance, even if it's not any part of the concious minds of these rioters.

[eFestivals]

Happened in Bradford quite recently 2001 I think.. looked as bad but didnt get as much press attention as it wasn't in that there London.

oh, there's localised incidents each year, nearly always about localised issues. For something to get as widespread as this has, there's got to be something widespread that's underlying it all.