news & politics:discussion

[Guest]

 

[steviewevie]

36 minutes ago, charlierc said:

Doing nothing isn't going to be an option if the gas companies filter down such a whopping price increase on top of the whopping increase they are already trying to force through.

maybe we could Insulate Britain.

[steviewevie]

meanwhile.

 

[Neil]

15 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Well..I guess..but who doesn't?

what it deoesnt need is a further set of interests to be satisfied.

[steviewevie]

45 minutes ago, Neil said:

what it deoesnt need is a further set of interests to be satisfied.

maybe it's in everyone's interest if they find a diplomatic solution to this.

[steviewevie]

Should Ukraine just surrender, in order to save a lot of lives?

[steviewevie]

 

[Kurosagi]

Don't know if people are familiar with Media Lens? They've been going for best part of 20 years and keep an eye on some of the worst excesses of the UK journalists. They used to have an excellent (now defunct) public forum that helped keep me sane during Blair's Iraq war, a bit like this thread does now (and the old 'shit' thread did during covid).

Their latest long read about the crisis in Ukraine is as illuminating as ever:

https://www.medialens.org/2022/doubling-down-on-double-standards-the-ukraine-propaganda-blitz/

A little taster from their conclusion:

...But why speak up now, in particular? Shouldn’t we just shut up and ‘get on board’ in a time of crisis? No, because war is a time when propaganda messages are hammered home with great force: ‘We’re the Good Guys standing up for democracy.’ It is a vital time to examine and challenge these claims.

What critics dismiss as ‘Whataboutism’ is actually ‘Wearenobetterism’. If ‘we’ are no better, or if ‘we’ are actually worse, then where does that leave ‘our’ righteous moral outrage? Can ‘compassion’ rooted in deep hypocrisy be deeply felt?

Critics dismissing evidence of double standards as ‘whataboutery’, are promoting the view that ‘their’ crimes should be wholly condemned, but not those committed by ‘Us’ and ‘Our’ allies. The actions of Official Enemies are to be judged by a different standard than that by which we judge ourselves...

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Kurosagi said:

Don't know if people are familiar with Media Lens? They've been going for best part of 20 years and keep an eye on some of the worst excesses of the UK journalists. They used to have an excellent (now defunct) public forum that helped keep me sane during Blair's Iraq war, a bit like this thread does now (and the old 'shit' thread did during covid).

Their latest long read about the crisis in Ukraine is as illuminating as ever:

https://www.medialens.org/2022/doubling-down-on-double-standards-the-ukraine-propaganda-blitz/

A little taster from their conclusion:

...But why speak up now, in particular? Shouldn’t we just shut up and ‘get on board’ in a time of crisis? No, because war is a time when propaganda messages are hammered home with great force: ‘We’re the Good Guys standing up for democracy.’ It is a vital time to examine and challenge these claims.

What critics dismiss as ‘Whataboutism’ is actually ‘Wearenobetterism’. If ‘we’ are no better, or if ‘we’ are actually worse, then where does that leave ‘our’ righteous moral outrage? Can ‘compassion’ rooted in deep hypocrisy be deeply felt?

Critics dismissing evidence of double standards as ‘whataboutery’, are promoting the view that ‘their’ crimes should be wholly condemned, but not those committed by ‘Us’ and ‘Our’ allies. The actions of Official Enemies are to be judged by a different standard than that by which we judge ourselves...

I mean...we can keep looking at past shit but this is the current crisis, this is happening right now. You expect journalists when talking about the bombing of civilians in Kharkiv to bring up the bombing of civilians in Iraq by the US? Maybe we should talk more about what was carried out by Russia in Syria, Grozny or Georgia?

In the end it's war and you pick your side and it all becomes good vs bad which is obviously bullshit as it's always much more complicated and different shades of grey. In WW2 there was apartheid US, imperialist UK and Stalinist Russia versus nazi, imperialist Germany, fascist Italy and imperialist Japan...but history tells us we were on the right side...same as US/UK were not in Iraq...and same as Russia will not be with what they're doing in Ukraine.

[Guest]

 

[steviewevie]

 

[Kurosagi]

4 hours ago, steviewevie said:

I mean...we can keep looking at past shit but this is the current crisis, this is happening right now

If you don't call out the propaganda we'll end up falling into the same traps again and again and again. What's at stake is bigger than Ukraine and to try to understand the double standards at play shouldn't take away any compassion for what they specifically are going through right now.

Regardless of the history and context of what came before, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is a major international crime and the consequences are hugely serious.

Our essential point for over 20 years has been that the public is bombarded with the crimes of Official Enemies by ‘mainstream’ media, while ‘our’ crimes are ignored, or downplayed, or ‘justified’. A genuinely free and independent media would be exactly as tough and challenging on US-UK-NATO actions and policies as they are on Russian actions and policies.

To point out this glaring double standard is not to ‘carry water for Putin’; any more than pointing out state-corporate deceptions over Iraq, Libya and Syria meant we held any kind of candle for Saddam, Gaddafi or Assad.

[steviewevie]

7 hours ago, Kurosagi said:

If you don't call out the propaganda we'll end up falling into the same traps again and again and again. What's at stake is bigger than Ukraine and to try to understand the double standards at play shouldn't take away any compassion for what they specifically are going through right now.

Regardless of the history and context of what came before, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is a major international crime and the consequences are hugely serious.

Our essential point for over 20 years has been that the public is bombarded with the crimes of Official Enemies by ‘mainstream’ media, while ‘our’ crimes are ignored, or downplayed, or ‘justified’. A genuinely free and independent media would be exactly as tough and challenging on US-UK-NATO actions and policies as they are on Russian actions and policies.

To point out this glaring double standard is not to ‘carry water for Putin’; any more than pointing out state-corporate deceptions over Iraq, Libya and Syria meant we held any kind of candle for Saddam, Gaddafi or Assad.

Yeah, but like I say this is happening now. The press has talked about stuff that happened in Iraq, Libya and Syria in the past. Infact what Russia did in Aleppo is one big reason people are so worried now. But yes, anyone committing war crimes should be held to account, and they often aren't...although they were after the Serbia/Bosina conflict. And not sure what you mean by traps? You mean we shouldn't believe everything we read or hear and that Russia have some sort of point? Or you mean just that we think we're the good guys and Russia are evil?

[steviewevie]

Interesting thread from former foreign minister of Russia.

 

[Zoo Music Girl]

So the new humanitarian corridors only lead to Belarus and Russia. Perfect.

[steviewevie]

 

[fred quimby]

The road signs have been good. I saw the one where all routes were to the Hague 

[Kurosagi]

7 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Yeah, but like I say this is happening now.

I could be wrong, but I get the sense that you've only read the snippets I highlighted rather than the article itself, especially as your highlighted point above was pretty much the view that inspired them to write it. A pity, I found it an interesting piece with plenty of examples from current and past conflicts to elaborate their points, some examples that I wasn't aware of especially the comparisons with Yemen.

However, it has made me smile that my sharing an opinion piece has managed to briefly unite you and Baz.

[steviewevie]

29 minutes ago, Kurosagi said:

I could be wrong, but I get the sense that you've only read the snippets I highlighted rather than the article itself, especially as your highlighted point above was pretty much the view that inspired them to write it. A pity, I found it an interesting piece with plenty of examples from current and past conflicts to elaborate their points, some examples that I wasn't aware of especially the comparisons with Yemen.

However, it has made me smile that my sharing an opinion piece has managed to briefly unite you and Baz.

I read it...a long list of all the bad stuff Nato/west/israel has done...and we must remember that before any criticism of russia etc etc. Media lens just likes to select it's atrocities/genocides to fit it's agenda...and it doesn't have to worry about any regulators or fact checkers...

[Kurosagi]

55 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I read it...a long list of all the bad stuff Nato/west/israel has done...and we must remember that before any criticism of russia etc etc. Media lens just likes to select it's atrocities/genocides to fit it's agenda...and it doesn't have to worry about any regulators or fact checkers...

My mistake then, kudos for taking the time to read it.

Their view is pretty heavily informed by Chomsky's propaganda model, I'm not sure that's an agenda rather a way of seeing the world. In the past I've not seen them be pro russia or pro any particular country, they've stuck fairly rigidly to their approach of challenging left wing 'broadsheet' journalists, which has often infuriated the left.

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

 

agree or we will continue to kill your civilians.

[steviewevie]

...but maybe there is an agreement that could be made there...something like Finland after WW2. Trouble is, trust has gone...and maybe Ukraine thinks that they have the upper hand...

[Guest]

 

 

[Guest]

So it seems we are at the stage of the UK Govs response to the Ukraine invasion where they are make colossal fools of themselves.