news & politics:discussion

[Ozanne]

Just now, steviewevie said:

😐

Yeah, well...I'm just reading what other people say...I think there was a lot of people saying starmer's plans were shit on stage, but...silent majority.

I know, I’m just messing around mate.

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

I know, I’m just messing around mate.

big relief that for Starmer. 

[mattiloy]

Well, if its now fixed so that someone equally lacklustre takes Starmer’s place (and Starmer’s successors place and his successors successors place…), I’ll go on the record and say we won’t see another Labour majority government in my lifetime (for reference I’m 30 years old and hope to live to a ripe old age).

The best anybody can hope for is that the proportional representation motion is passed and for a hung parliament at some point and the eventual dismantling of the Labour party into its proper parts (the slimey, unpopular, vote fixing, careerist SDP phonies and a proper left wing people’s party).

Edited September 26, 2021 by mattiloy

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

Well, if its now fixed so that someone equally lacklustre takes Starmer’s place (and Starmer’s successors place and his successors successors place…), I’ll go on the record and say we won’t see another Labour majority government in my lifetime (for reference I’m 30 years old and hope to live to a ripe old age).

 

tenner you're wrong.

[mattiloy]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

tenner you're wrong.

Sold! To the man in purple 

Edited September 26, 2021 by mattiloy

[steviewevie]

Just now, mattiloy said:

Sold to the man in purple 

I mean, I'm expecting a labour majority in my lifetime, and I'm already old and am already pretty fucked.

[mattiloy]

22 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I mean, I'm expecting a labour majority in my lifetime, and I'm already old and am already pretty fucked.

Notwithstanding a tory collapse, I don’t think they will win a majority again

Not off the merits of people like Keir Starmer (which are vanishingly few) and that fucking useless prick Wes Streeting and their ability to interpret ’what people want’ - which is the inference - that those little politics geeks from your school who went to oxbridge and studied politics, became a SPAD and then eventually sucked enough hole to get parachuted into some seat or other, before sucking even more hole to gain the confidence of that festering cesspit the PLP - are better placed to interpret what ordinary people are going to vote for than 500,000 members.

People wonder if at some point a UK Ocasio-Cortez would happen - nobody fitting that description would join the party (possibly they’ve recently been booted out), if they did join the party they now haven’t a cat in hells chance of progressing. Instead you’ve an eternal production line of horrendous egomaniacs like chuka umunna and wes streeting who are always bound to covet power, apparently oblivious to how dismally unpopular they’d be if they ever became leader, or maybe unconcerned so long as it paid (in addition to whatever cushy non executive director posts they got upon exit).

Anyway. Fingers crossed for a hung parliament.

Edited September 26, 2021 by mattiloy

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Notwithstanding a tory collapse, I don’t think they will win a majority again

Not off the merits of people like Keir Starmer (which are vanishingly few) and that fucking useless prick Wes Streeting and their ability to interpret ’what people want’ - which is the inference - that those little politics geeks from your school who went to oxbridge and studied politics, became a SPAD and then eventually sucked enough hole to get parachuted into some seat or other, before sucking even more hole to gain the confidence of that festering cesspit the PLP - are better placed to interpret what ordinary people are going to vote for than 500,000 members.

People wonder if at some point a UK Ocasio-Cortez would happen - nobody fitting that description would join the party (possibly they’ve recently been booted out), if they did join the party they now haven’t a cat in hells chance of progressing. Instead you’ve an eternal production line of horrendous egomaniacs like chuka umunna and wes streeting who are always bound to covet power, apparently oblivious to how dismally unpopular they’d be if they ever became leader, or maybe unconcerned so long as it paid (in addition to whatever cushy non executive director posts they got upon exit).

Anyway. Fingers crossed for a hung parliament.

those MPs have to get elected, so it is in their interest to know what ordinary people will vote for.

[Matt42]

Government looking to lower the salary threshold for student loan payments

[steviewevie]

So...PR lovers just have to look what's happening in Germany...

[fraybentos1]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

a proper left wing people’s party).

Who would get about 10-15 percent of the vote max and be occasional junior partners in a coalition. What a radical change that would be!

[squirrelarmy]

40 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

Who would get about 10-15 percent of the vote max and be occasional junior partners in a coalition. What a radical change that would be!

Don’t start using logic. Next thing you’ll be saying is that to gain a majority then they’ll need to appeal to the majority of the country and not just small number of hard core leftists😂

[mattiloy]

1 hour ago, fraybentos1 said:

Who would get about 10-15 percent of the vote max and be occasional junior partners in a coalition. What a radical change that would be!

Yeah, the number of left MPs in parliament would go from 30ish to 60-90ish by your own estimation. In percentage terms, thats a 100-200% increase. Fairly sure that would have an impact on the balance of power yeah.

There is a reason that in the developed world, those countries that have sustained the anti-democratic political systems like ours or the US's, are also the countries in which the political system has descended into farce and trust in institutions is something close to rock bottom.

These the countries in which Rupert Murdoch takes most interest, because they are the systems that are most easy to influence by throwing dirty money at it and elevating the politicians to celebrity status and encouraging the whole pantomime. Its sleight of hand, whilst people are looking at the funny men on the TV, nobody is paying attention to the things that actually matter.

So FPTP is shit isn't it?

Not to mention with PR nobody ever again has to hold their nose to vote for the least worst candidate. Gotta be good for turnout right?

Morally, in terms of outcomes in respect of delivering policy, for the engagement of the public in democracy - on basically any measure PR is a good thing. This should be fairly obvious to anyone of sound mind.

Edited September 26, 2021 by mattiloy

[mattiloy]

24 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

Don’t start using logic. Next thing you’ll be saying is that to gain a majority then they’ll need to appeal to the majority of the country and not just small number of hard core leftists😂

guy who doesn't understand PR ^

[steviewevie]

12 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Yeah, the number of left MPs in parliament would go from 30ish to 60-90ish by your own estimation. In percentage terms, thats a 100-200% increase. Fairly sure that would have an impact on the balance of power yeah.

There is a reason that in the developed world, those countries that have sustained the anti-democratic political systems like ours or the US's, are also the countries in which the political system has descended into farce and trust in institutions is something close to rock bottom.

These the countries in which Rupert Murdoch takes most interest, because they are the systems that are most easy to influence by throwing dirty money at it and elevating the politicians to celebrity status and encouraging the whole pantomime. Its sleight of hand, whilst people are looking at the funny men on the TV, nobody is paying attention to the things that actually matter.

So FPTP is shit isn't it?

Not to mention with PR nobody ever again has to hold their nose to vote for the least worst candidate. Gotta be good for turnout right?

Morally, in terms of outcomes in respect of delivering policy, for the engagement of the public in democracy - on basically any measure PR is a good thing. This should be fairly obvious to anyone of sound mind.

definitely more representative, but also often end up with a mushy centrism.

[mattiloy]

30 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

definitely more representative, but also often end up with a mushy centrism.

Maybe as the sum of all parts you could describe it as something like centrist but its all about dealmaking. Parties come with the most important policies to them and if they are all willing to make compromises on other things then its often the case these things get done even if it sometimes involves fairly radical reforms.

Which is right, then politicians are being paid to do what they're supposed to do which is make tough compromises and eke out enough common ground to run a country. Thats what they are paid to do by us. We the voters shouldn't have to go through the anxiety of this ridiculous election oriented cognitive dissonance every few years. You get enough of it every four years when you want England to win in the world cup, but you don't want England fans to win.

In the longer run though, with the voters focusing more on policy than personality than they do in the UK, I'm fairly sure the popular economic policies would look more left wing than what successive UK governments have tended to deliver.

Edited September 26, 2021 by mattiloy

[fraybentos1]

57 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Yeah, the number of left MPs in parliament would go from 30ish to 60-90ish by your own estimation. In percentage terms, thats a 100-200% increase. Fairly sure that would have an impact on the balance of power yeah.

There is a reason that in the developed world, those countries that have sustained the anti-democratic political systems like ours or the US's, are also the countries in which the political system has descended into farce and trust in institutions is something close to rock bottom.

These the countries in which Rupert Murdoch takes most interest, because they are the systems that are most easy to influence by throwing dirty money at it and elevating the politicians to celebrity status and encouraging the whole pantomime. Its sleight of hand, whilst people are looking at the funny men on the TV, nobody is paying attention to the things that actually matter.

So FPTP is shit isn't it?

Not to mention with PR nobody ever again has to hold their nose to vote for the least worst candidate. Gotta be good for turnout right?

Morally, in terms of outcomes in respect of delivering policy, for the engagement of the public in democracy - on basically any measure PR is a good thing. This should be fairly obvious to anyone of sound mind.

I’m a huge proponent of PR. Always will be.

You seemed to imply that a switch to PR would mean something good for your fringe views and the parliamentarians who share them. I don’t think it would. 
 

As I say about 10-15 percent of people would vote for them. They’d have a fairly minor influence and only any influence when the soft left type party (who you would despise still lol) won the most seats. Yeah I’m not denying they’d get some concessions and have some influence but the real people in power would still be soft left even when your party had some sort of influence. 
 

Also hilarious that you’ve basically agreed with me that this lefty party would get 10-15 percent of the vote 😂😂😂 Thought the voters were crying out for socialism haha 

[mattiloy]

7 hours ago, fraybentos1 said:

I’m a huge proponent of PR. Always will be.

You seemed to imply that a switch to PR would mean something good for your fringe views and the parliamentarians who share them. I don’t think it would. 
 

As I say about 10-15 percent of people would vote for them. They’d have a fairly minor influence and only any influence when the soft left type party (who you would despise still lol) won the most seats. Yeah I’m not denying they’d get some concessions and have some influence but the real people in power would still be soft left even when your party had some sort of influence. 
 

Also hilarious that you’ve basically agreed with me that this lefty party would get 10-15 percent of the vote 😂😂😂 Thought the voters were crying out for socialism haha 

Not only would the left party have more influence, but if the labour moderate party moved right, the left vote would grow, keeping the sort of mission drift that we are currently seeing from Starmer in check. This has occurred broadly across europe in the wake of a pattern of major social democratic parties drifting right https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasokification.

Now some of the social democrats have realised this and gone left, and in doing so have been successful. The Norwegian Arbeiterpartei won the recent election on a fairly left economic platform. The social democrats in Denmark enjoy broad approval by being well left on economics, and right on immigration.

Look at the German election - the SDP have outperformed their early polling by going left - including a 12euro minimum wage and 1% wealth tax amongst other things. In doing that they've managed to galvanise the left vote and take some of the left and green vote, who were both polling well at the beginning of the year.

You clearly know nothing of my personal views. I don't mind the soft left. I voted for Nandy in the leadership election.

But put it this way, Chukka Umunna and Luciana Berger ran for the Lib Dems after leaving Labour. Thats not soft left. I don't think many social democrat MPs in PR systems in Europe would countenance changing stripes to their country's Liberal party. But in a two party system the UK's social democrat party, which yes should be soft left - should be mainly your Nandys, Milibands, Burnhams - is absolutely infested with centrists and liberals.

If the UK could have a soft left government propped up by green/left groups with some decent concessions on working conditions, wealth redistribution, public ownership and environmental policies, I'd be in seventh heaven.

But I am interested, I wonder if you can be specific and tell me what my fringe views are?

[steviewevie]

I don't know if PR would be the be all and end all, but it certainly would be more representative. In normal times both big parties would be against it as it doesn't favour them, but as labour look unlikely to win a majority with fptp anytime soon, maybe it's something they could get on board with. Labour would definitely split if we had PR, but that's no bad thing.

[Ozanne]

They also knew about the pandemic coming weeks earlier too and did nothing. 

[fraybentos1]

3 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Not only would the left party have more influence, but if the labour moderate party moved right, the left vote would grow, keeping the sort of mission drift that we are currently seeing from Starmer in check. This has occurred broadly across europe in the wake of a pattern of major social democratic parties drifting right https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasokification.

Now some of the social democrats have realised this and gone left, and in doing so have been successful. The Norwegian Arbeiterpartei won the recent election on a fairly left economic platform. The social democrats in Denmark enjoy broad approval by being well left on economics, and right on immigration.

Look at the German election - the SDP have outperformed their early polling by going left - including a 12euro minimum wage and 1% wealth tax amongst other things. In doing that they've managed to galvanise the left vote and take some of the left and green vote, who were both polling well at the beginning of the year.

You clearly know nothing of my personal views. I don't mind the soft left. I voted for Nandy in the leadership election.

But put it this way, Chukka Umunna and Luciana Berger ran for the Lib Dems after leaving Labour. Thats not soft left. I don't think many social democrat MPs in PR systems in Europe would countenance changing stripes to their country's Liberal party. But in a two party system the UK's social democrat party, which yes should be soft left - should be mainly your Nandys, Milibands, Burnhams - is absolutely infested with centrists and liberals.

If the UK could have a soft left government propped up by green/left groups with some decent concessions on working conditions, wealth redistribution, public ownership and environmental policies, I'd be in seventh heaven.

But I am interested, I wonder if you can be specific and tell me what my fringe views are?

Had no idea you voted Nandy! Thought you’d have been an RLB man all day long?

By fringe views I meant being further left than almost all of the electorate, which I think is fair to say is true.

Tbh as much as I’d love PR and Labour sometimes flirt with the idea. They will never implement it. No party is gonna vote to destroy themselves and their nice safe seats. Why would they?

[Ozanne]

This country is a complete mess. The government should resign. 

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

From https://fabians.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Fabian-Society-Winning-150-1.pdf

150 seats labour needs to win.

[steviewevie]

After last couple of days think it's much more likely Reeves will be next leader rather than Rayner.