news & politics:discussion

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

In your current politics stance.

It’s not changed . 

[Ozanne]

 

[Ozanne]

Just now, Crazyfool01 said:

It’s not changed . 

It changes fairly regularly. 

[Crazyfool01]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

It changes fairly regularly. 

Not as often as starmers policy’s. . Night 😊

[cellar]

5 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

It changes fairly regularly. 

Someone's rattled 😂

[Neil]

5 hours ago, steviewevie said:

can't exactly back Hamas can they? What they do need to do is reiterate that no war crimes are committed, that humanitarian aid is there for those in Gaza, and that a two state solution needs to be found.

Problem is the Israel having a right to defend itself thing. In this case how does that work?

i think the two state solution idea is dead. not going to happen, would require the Palestinians accepting they've lost that land forever. would also require Israel to accept a Palestinian state on its borders (still probably chucking bombs over the fence).

[Neil]

2 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

The thing is we can say what we want and (admittedly making assumptions on your behalf ther definitely don’t on mine ) nobody gives a sh*t. Starmer lives in a world where what he says matters and sometimes he probably can’t say what he wants.

Starmer wants to be PM of this country. In a way I admire him for that as it’s a job I wouldn’t want to do. It’s a job where you make tough decisions and get involved in this crazy geopolitical world where i wouldn’t know where to start. I don’t have a clue how to sort this mess, but in his position you can’t say I don’t have a clue and have to think not just about what you say, the short and long term impact and how it will be interpreted or twisted.

I think your point about social media is an apt one. Starmer could come out with statements some on the left would like, could get likes and retweets. Instead he is playing the long game and taking the flack that comes with that. This shitstorm won’t be solved by statements on social media, i think Starmer gets that and is laser focused on winning the election and making things better

whatever starmer says is not going to bring peace in Israel, but can say the wrong thing and escalate the issues.

[pink_triangle]

38 minutes ago, cellar said:

So, you're supporting Starmer, who supports Israel...

Do you think Israel has committed war crimes? Do you think there is an apartheid state? Do you think the West is complicit in the situation?

Or is all of this irrelevant and superceded by blind support for a party that should win the next GE with their eyes closed anyway?

I think they are two different discussions. However both exist in the world as it is, not the one you may like it to be. I want to see less people killing each other, I hold my hands up that I don’t know the solution to that. I have to hope that cleverer people than me can find a sticking plaster, because that’s more likely than a solution.

Now Starmer can’t necessarily say what he wants, only he knows what he really thinks. I think the approach he is going to take is obvious and the one I would advise him to take. As I said his approach is one that works with the world as it is, not the one we may like it to be.

[Ozanne]

30 minutes ago, Neil said:

whatever starmer says is not going to bring peace in Israel, but can say the wrong thing and escalate the issues.

Whatever Starmer says it isn’t going to be enough for these people that will use any event to criticise.

Just ask, why no questions have been asked of the Tory PM?

[pink_triangle]

4 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Whatever Starmer says it isn’t going to be enough for these people that will use any event to criticise.

Just ask, why no questions have been asked of the Tory PM?

The question aren’t asked because the Tory’s are pretty united. It’s a bit of a wedge issue for labour which I think some are hoping to exploit.

[cellar]

Also I don't care what the Tories support. I want them out regardless. I'm more concerned about what the future leader of the country supports.

It's not hard, for most, to understand this.

[pink_triangle]

4 minutes ago, cellar said:

Also I don't care what the Tories support. I want them out regardless. I'm more concerned about what the future leader of the country supports.

It's not hard, for most, to understand this.

I imagine there are a host of things he supports that he won’t say in public because it makes political sense. That’s the pragmatism of power, if you are a protest party you can say everything you think and not care about the impact. Out of interest what would you advise Starmer to say that both was right, but wouldn’t adversely impact on party unity or electoral chances?

[Ozanne]

48 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

The question aren’t asked because the Tory’s are pretty united. It’s a bit of a wedge issue for labour which I think some are hoping to exploit.

I don’t think it’s much of an issue for Labour these days, look at Conference and you’ll see they are pretty united. That’s a party heading to government as much as it might annoy the people here. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Ozanne

[Rufus Gwertigan]

14 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Are Israel winning the death score yet?

Whole thing is f**king sick.

Israel will always win on that score. More deaths thanks to the genocide.

[steviewevie]

7 hours ago, Neil said:

i think the two state solution idea is dead. not going to happen, would require the Palestinians accepting they've lost that land forever. would also require Israel to accept a Palestinian state on its borders (still probably chucking bombs over the fence).

yeah, I think you're probably right. Two state solution has been dead for a while, always very difficult for Palestinians to accept what was overall a sh*t deal for them in the 90s (but better than they could hope for now). Need to go back to 1947 and start again. Or go back to1920s Germany and someone have a word. Whole thing is a catastrophe.

[steviewevie]

I remember when Russia/Ukraine was the biggest threat to global peace, this has taken it up to a whole new level. All we need is for China to invade Taiwan now.

(actually Russia probably still wins seeing as you have nuclear superpowers involved).

[steviewevie]

6 hours ago, Ozanne said:

I don’t think it’s much of an issue for Labour these days, look at Conference and you’ll see they are pretty united. That’s a party heading to government as much as it might annoy the people here. 

definitely has potential to be a wedge issue...on Tuesday there was still a lot of sympathy for Israel, that will evaporate if situation gets too bad Gaza, infact already is. Many on labour left see Palestine as one of the top international issues, also muslim Labour supporters are already voicing their opposition to what Starmer has said. Best bet for British politicians is to stay out of it when it gets a bit tricky, that's what we've done so well in the past.

Edited October 15, 2023 by steviewevie

[mattiloy]

7 hours ago, cellar said:

Also I don't care what the Tories support. I want them out regardless. I'm more concerned about what the future leader of the country supports.

It's not hard, for most, to understand this.

 

Yeah, like if you’re were a catholic you’d care more about what the Pope says than what the Archbishop of Canterbury says.

Its pretty straight forward..

What the tories say is completely predictable and completely uninteresting.

Whats disappointing is that a guy who is the leader of the nominally left wing party doesnt say anything different.

But yeah fine, you can say he wants to win an election and feels like he cant say what he really thinks. But why he has gone about rigging his candidate lists with right wingers (with it being nothing to do with behaviour/professionalism/causing embarrassment to the party- with right wingers still being allowed to stand having in some cases been previously suspended for being racist, or for being sex pests), he’s then either demoted or booted all the soft left MPs out of his shadow cabinet.. if you think that these are the actions of a guy who is preparing to lurch towards radical positions in govt- you are out of your mind.

[mattiloy]

Looking forward to Ozanne being very quiet in this thread when Starmer’s govt has jacked up tuition fees, sold off whats left of the NHS and starts bombing some civilians in some far flung country.

Or i guess then it’ll be justified as being in order to win a second term or something?

Edited October 15, 2023 by mattiloy

[steviewevie]

42 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

 

Yeah, like if you’re were a catholic you’d care more about what the Pope says than what the Archbishop of Canterbury says.

Its pretty straight forward..

What the tories say is completely predictable and completely uninteresting.

Whats disappointing is that a guy who is the leader of the nominally left wing party doesnt say anything different.

But yeah fine, you can say he wants to win an election and feels like he cant say what he really thinks. But why he has gone about rigging his candidate lists with right wingers (with it being nothing to do with behaviour/professionalism/causing embarrassment to the party- with right wingers still being allowed to stand having in some cases been previously suspended for being racist, or for being sex pests), he’s then either demoted or booted all the soft left MPs out of his shadow cabinet.. if you think that these are the actions of a guy who is preparing to lurch towards radical positions in govt- you are out of your mind.

There is a difference between what Starmer and Sunak has said. Starmer has said about need for both sides to remain with international law which includes supply of food, water, electricity and medicines, and for routes out for those wanting to leave Gaza. Sunak didn't mention Gaza.

[mattiloy]

Just now, steviewevie said:

There is a difference between what Starmer and Sunak has said. Starmer has said about need for both sides to remain with international law which includes supply of food, water, electricity and medicines, and for routes out for those wanting to leave Gaza. Sunak didn't mention Gaza.

Yes. He did say that. Almost a week after he refused to condemn it. After a week of war crimes by the Israeli govt. Not good.

[Neil]

8 hours ago, cellar said:

Also I don't care what the Tories support. I want them out regardless. I'm more concerned about what the future leader of the country supports.

It's not hard, for most, to understand this.

It's not hard to understand your double standards.

[Crazyfool01]

7 hours ago, Ozanne said:

That’s a party heading to government as much as it might annoy the people here. 

Edited 7 hours ago by Ozanne

Nearly everyone here wants a change in govt . That doesn’t mean that people can’t question and talk about things they don’t like about the opposition. 

[steviewevie]

10 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Yes. He did say that. Almost a week after he refused to condemn it. After a week of war crimes by the Israeli govt. Not good.

He said in interview midweek about keeping within international law, although it was a bit confusing whether this included the siege. 

A week ago Hamas were roaming S Israel killing Jews for fun.

[Crazyfool01]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

He said in interview midweek about keeping within international law, although it was a bit confusing whether this included the siege. 

A week ago Hamas were roaming S Israel killing Jews for fun.

Midweek Israel were bombing Gaza where civilians had no means of escape