Jeremy Corbyn

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, strummer77 said:

If they pretend the EU as it is now is absolutely great and we should all jump aboard the great European project then it will lose. Again.

why does my "better than brexit" become your "absolutely great"? 

 

[strummer77]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

why does my "better than brexit" become your "absolutely great"? 

Well simply 'better than Brexit' isn't much different to Corbyn's 7/10 stuff to be honest. So I'm confused as to what you're saying now.

Edited January 23, 2019 by strummer77

[strummer77]

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

why does my "better than brexit" become your "absolutely great"? 

 

I'm also not arguing against you - more the people who will want to lead the campaign...

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, strummer77 said:

Well 'better than Brexit' isn't much different to Corbyn's 7/10 stuff to be honest. 

but would be about why it was better in what could actually happen, rather than a list of things for how it could be better still if only blah blah blah.

The Corbyn method highlights the reasons to not support it.

I'm saying we need to highlight why we should support it, by showing how things turn out worse via brexit. 

Just now, strummer77 said:

I'm also not arguing against you - more the people who will want to lead the campaign...

But Jez wants to lead the campaign if there's going to be one, otherwise he'll stomp off in a huff and say people shouldn't support it.

Which is why there's all this factional bollocks about Blairites. 

[strummer77]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

But Jez wants to lead the campaign if there's going to be one, otherwise he'll stomp off in a huff and say people shouldn't support it.

Which is why there's all this factional bollocks about Blairites. 

I think the Blairites do want to run it in fairness. Mandelson, Campbell and Blair have all been pretty vocal. Corbyn may want to as well. But I think both would probably be bad choices.

Although who would be a good choice? Hard to think of someone who hasn't got the baggage.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, strummer77 said:

I think the Blairites do want to run it in fairness. Mandelson, Campbell and Blair have all been pretty vocal. Corbyn may want to as well. But I think both would probably be bad choices.

Although who would be a good choice? Hard to think of someone who hasn't got the baggage.

I'd say that those who've been driving the campaign for it are the best placed to put forward any needed leaders.

Rather than thinking a lifetime-brexiter who only made half-hearted efforts last time and who doesn't yet support it this time would be a good choice.

Edited January 23, 2019 by eFestivals

[strummer77]

29 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'd say that those who've been driving the campaign for it are the best placed to put forward any needed leaders.

Then I think they’ll lose. They’ll broadly be the same people who lost in 2016 and haven’t convinced the public of the need for a referendum despite all that’s been going on. 

It doesnt have to be them or Corbyn. 

Edited January 23, 2019 by strummer77

[eFestivals]

Just now, strummer77 said:

Then I think they’ll lose. They’ll broadly be the same people who lost in 2016 and haven’t convinced the public of the need for a referendum despite all that’s been going on. 

Nope. It won't be 'the govt' for a start.

And against the EU advocates, it's Boris and Farage and IDS who are the establishment.

But anyone who'd vote on that basis is lost anyway. There's no winning over the true believers.

[Ommadawn]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

there's lots of different versions of out, and this part is why we're at stalemate.

There is only one version of in.

Two actually - stay as we are or fully embrace the EU (adopt the euro, give up our veto etc etc)

[TheNoise]

37 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

Two actually - stay as we are or fully embrace the EU (adopt the euro, give up our veto etc etc)

You've just reminded me of another reason brexiteers voted to leave.

How many countries are reported to be worse off since adopting the euro ? Greece is the obvious one but I'm sure there's a lot more.

I was in Italy a few weeks before the referendum and I was truly shocked at how bad it is there. I don't know about Rome and other major tourist places but we were on the Amalfi Coast and apart from Sorrento it is so desperate. 

I think that fear of the euro and what has happened to other countries contributed to the result.

If ( and it's a big if ) we do get a second referendum, I would hope that the remain campaign would state that we would stay as we are and not fully embrace the EU.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, TheNoise said:

How many countries are reported to be worse off since adopting the euro ? Greece is the obvious one but I'm sure there's a lot more.

Greece isn't fucked because it adopted the euro, but because it spent money it didn't have.

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

[TheNoise]

36 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Greece isn't fucked because it adopted the euro, but because it spent money it didn't have.

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Greece was just one example.

Quote

If one country does poorly, blame the country; if many countries are doing poorly, blame the system.

From this article https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/13/euro-growth-eurozone-joseph-stiglitz

I'm not anti-EU, I voted remain, but I would be against joining a currency that has benefited a few and brought hardship to a lot more. I know it's not just down to the euro, but joining a single currency when your own is doing poorly was never a good idea.

[Ommadawn]

Maybe we need a 'Peoples Vote' on the terms of us staying in

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, TheNoise said:

I would be against joining a currency ...

why mention it? The UK has a permanent opt-out, and no one is proposing we join it.

But if we had at the start we'd be about 30% richer today than we are today. The Euro isn't failing, Sterling is!

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

Maybe we need a 'Peoples Vote' on the terms of us staying in

If people start making up their own bollocks we can ride the unicorns to anywhere. It's what got us here in the first place.

Why not address real life instead?

[eFestivals]

19 minutes ago, TheNoise said:

I would be against joining a currency that has benefited a few and brought hardship to a lot more.

that's not actually true.

Those in hardship are those who've overspent in the past and today are having to pay back what's due.

A sleight of hand via a currency devaluation isn't avoiding anything of the 'getting poorer' that is caused by greater outgoings than incomings.

Unless we've got richer since sterling fell off a cliff?? 

There are only the resources we have. If they're going to X there's less available for Y.

Meanwhile, a single currency takes speculators out of one part of the market, and that's a good thing. The fewer w*nkers riding off the back of the productive the better.

Edited January 24, 2019 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

So now Corbyn has offered May 'terms' for labour support for brexit - and not even the 'six tests'. 

He's as keen for out as JRM.  

[Homer]

Said on R4 last night that even Tusk has given up on a second ref/us staying.

[eFestivals]

29 minutes ago, Homer said:

Said on R4 last night that even Tusk has given up on a second ref/us staying.

I think it was more an attempt to poke Corbyn into doing something.

And he did do something. He said he'd help May with brexit.

Tosser.

[Wooderson]

54 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I think it was more an attempt to poke Corbyn into doing something.

And he did do something. He said he'd help May with brexit.

Tosser.

Tusk or Corbski?

[danbailey80]

10 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

Tusk or Corbski?

Definitely Corbyn. 

Chuka summed it up well today. (Fuck me - if only he was head of the Labour Party. Which, I believe, he would be if the right wing press hadn't forced him to quit the race by aggressively hounding his family). This is what he wrote on FB.

"I hate to think what all those young voters who flocked to the party for the first time in 2017 will make of this. Vote Labour, get a Tory Brexit. They will feel they have been sold completely down the river.

This is not Opposition, it is the facilitation of a deal which will make this country poorer. A strong, coherent Labour alternative to this shabby, Tory Brexit is absent - it has been since this Parliament began. Totally demoralising.

The idea that a PM who sponsored employment tribunal fees, supported weakening unfair dismissal protection and more besides will ensure “dynamic alignment on rights and protections” is utterly laughable. A complete joke. Surely we can do better than this nonsense.

And let’s not forget - the “political declaration” is a declaration of aspiration. By the time the future trading relationship is finalised May will be long gone, new EU leaders will be in place and so on"

[eFestivals]

31 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

Tusk or Corbski?

brexit

[stuartbert two hats]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

So now Corbyn has offered May 'terms' for labour support for brexit - and not even the 'six tests'. 

He's as keen for out as JRM.  

The six tests were always unicorns - "exact same benefits" as the single market? What a load of guff.

I'm not happy about it, but I can at least concede that the concessions he's demanding bring us closer to actually representing the views of the referendum - I.e. a reasonably soft Brexit.  From the Guardian:

 

Quote

• A “permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs union”, including a say in future trade deals.

• Close alignment with the single market, underpinned by “shared institutions”.

• “Dynamic alignment on rights and protections”, so that UK standards do not fall behind those of the EU.

• Clear commitments on future UK participation in EU agencies and funding programmes.

• Unambiguous agreements on future security arrangements, such as use of the European arrest warrant.

 

 

A Brexit with all of May's red lines never represented how close the referendum was and a "no deal" Brexit most certainly does not.  As much as I'd strongly prefer to simply stay or have a Norway style arrangement, if I'm honest neither of those really represent the views of the leavers.  Does something like the above actually come closest to representing what was actually campaigned on and how the vote came in?  Perhaps.

A total shitshow whatever happens, obvs.

[Crazyfool01]

I just get more and more astounded by the day by this old man .... surely the labour party should do something about getting a new leader ... although like TM its a bit of a hiding to nothing  

[stuartbert two hats]

Of course Umunna is probably right, we wouldn't actually get the above from a Tory government.