Brexit Schmexit

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, zero000 said:

If they want to empower their members so widely as they claim to, then we can hope that the conference forces them to listen to them as Corbyn has implied . In reality they'll play upon support of their members when it suits them and ignore it when it's against their pro-brexit ideology, and disguise it with populist sentiments - "The will of the people". 

i'm pretty sure the only reason Corbyn and co were suggesting they'd go along with a members demand for a vote was because they knew a stitch-up would be sorted as it has been.

 

[gary1979666]

Is some of their motivation linked to the Irish border - what with talk of a pseudo border in the Irish sea.  It plays into the hands a bit of some of their sympathies over there. 

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

Is some of their motivation linked to the Irish border - what with talk of a pseudo border in the Irish sea.  It plays into the hands a bit of some of their sympathies over there. 

nope, the Corbyn "a" custom's union doesn't resolve the border issue any better than May's botch-job does.

Anyway, I know i've been saying that Labour need to do more to appeal to those who've been voting tory, but I wasn't suggesting Corbyn went for the raving-right-wing-brain-dead-nutters vote.

And they say Blair was a tory. :lol: 

[eFestivals]

Quote

There could be a vote:
Should the piss up be in either a disused brewery or a site of a former brewery

With the vote to hold it in an actual brewery not being offered to anyone

 

Edited September 24, 2018 by eFestivals

[zahidf]

Mental labour leave Mps

 

[pink_triangle]

39 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Mental labour leave Mps

 

As mad as these views are. Do you ever question if it's madness that the people you want to lead labour during this Brexit period would be lining up with these mad views if they were still on the backbenches?

[sjseabass]

49 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

As mad as these views are. Do you ever question if it's madness that the people you want to lead labour during this Brexit period would be lining up with these mad views if they were still on the backbenches?

I don't think you can necessarily lump Corbyn and McDonnell in with this sort of swivel-eyed lunacy. Look at someone like Dennis Skinner - voted Leave, still a backbencher, but never acts like Hoey. Lot of respect for him voting in favour of the customs union amendment.

I disapprove of the Labour leadership's Brexit position, in particular McClusky and McDonnell's Shit Deal / No Deal with no Remain option  referendum idea, but this is unfair.

[pink_triangle]

9 minutes ago, theevilfridge said:

I don't think you can necessarily lump Corbyn and McDonnell in with this sort of swivel-eyed lunacy. Look at someone like Dennis Skinner - voted Leave, still a backbencher, but never acts like Hoey. Lot of respect for him voting in favour of the customs union amendment.

I disapprove of the Labour leadership's Brexit position, in particular McClusky and McDonnell's Shit Deal / No Deal with no Remain option  referendum idea, but this is unfair.

The truth is we will never know. I stand by my view that picking a leave supporting MP to be labour leader knowing there was a Brexit referendum was a huge mistake.

A natural Brexiteer under no pressure from their supporters will never try to stop Brexit.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, theevilfridge said:

I don't think you can necessarily lump Corbyn and McDonnell in with this sort of swivel-eyed lunacy.

yeah, because they didn't constantly stand side-by-side with the swivel-eyed brexiters in both parties, did they?

Full list of MPs who voted for an EU referendum in 2011.

79 tories including Douglas Carswell, Bill Cash, David Davis, Nadine Dorries, Richard Drax, Andrea Leadsom, Priti Patel, John Redwood, and Jacob Rees-Mogg.

19 Labour MPs including Jeremy Corbyn, Jon Cruddas, Frank Field, Kate Hoey, John McDonnell, Dennis Skinner, Gisela Stuart.

No swivel eyed loons at all.

(apart from all of them)

Edited September 25, 2018 by eFestivals

[pink_triangle]

28 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

yeah, because they didn't constantly stand side-by-side with the swivel-eyed brexiters in both parties, did they?

Full list of MPs who voted for an EU referendum in 2011.

79 tories including Douglas Carswell, Bill Cash, David Davis, Nadine Dorries, Richard Drax, Andrea Leadsom, Priti Patel, John Redwood, and Jacob Rees-Mogg.

19 Labour MPs including Jeremy Corbyn, Jon Cruddas, Frank Field, Kate Hoey, John McDonnell, Dennis Skinner, Gisela Stuart.

No swivel eyed loons at all.

(apart from all of them)

That is why I can't see anything changing. Corbyn supporters have persuaded themselves that he isn't really a hard Brexiteer when the evidence points he is.

The trouble is I think Corbyn best chance of power is a hard Brexit and I think many Corbynites would accept that if it puts their man in number 10.

[sjseabass]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

yeah, because they didn't constantly stand side-by-side with the swivel-eyed brexiters in both parties, did they?

Full list of MPs who voted for an EU referendum in 2011.

79 tories including Douglas Carswell, Bill Cash, David Davis, Nadine Dorries, Richard Drax, Andrea Leadsom, Priti Patel, John Redwood, and Jacob Rees-Mogg.

19 Labour MPs including Jeremy Corbyn, Jon Cruddas, Frank Field, Kate Hoey, John McDonnell, Dennis Skinner, Gisela Stuart.

No swivel eyed loons at all.

(apart from all of them)

As I explained in my post (which you omitted from your quote, as you have a tendency to do) I think there is a distinction between leavers like Dennis Skinner and leavers like Kate Hoey, Jacob Rees-Mogg, etc.

Incidentally, one Lib Dem and Caroline Lucas also voted in favour in 2011. Gonna lump them in with Farage because of it?

[eFestivals]

20 minutes ago, theevilfridge said:

Incidentally, one Lib Dem and Caroline Lucas also voted in favour in 2011. Gonna lump them in with Farage because of it?

They voted in favour on the principle of democracy, of 'the people' having a say over the issue.

It's clear from Jez & McD's voting histories that they were voting for a referendum because they wanted out just the same as Farage and the other headbangers did (tho for different reasons).

McD just yesterday was making policy promises that require the UK to be out of the EU.

[sjseabass]

21 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

They voted in favour on the principle of democracy, of 'the people' having a say over the issue.

It's clear from Jez & McD's voting histories that they were voting for a referendum because they wanted out just the same as Farage and the other headbangers did (tho for different reasons).

McD just yesterday was making policy promises that require the UK to be out of the EU.

Oh, so you mean there is some nuance to different leavers’ positions, and that just because someone was historically in favour of an EU referendum or Brexit itself, they shouldn’t be lumped in with the loonies like pink_triangle did above?

That was literally my entire point. Cheers.

[eFestivals]

23 minutes ago, theevilfridge said:

Oh, so you mean there is some nuance to different leavers’ positions, and that just because someone was historically in favour of an EU referendum or Brexit itself, they shouldn’t be lumped in with the loonies like pink_triangle did above?

That was literally my entire point. Cheers.

wanting out of the EU in an unprepared way and with cake and eat it - the policy of both main parties - is one ONLY for the loonies.

If you care to notice, McD and Jez are currently threatening the same hard brexit as Rees Mogg.

I don't give much of a fuck what their reasons are for wanting brexit, I give a fuck about the consequences that any brexit will cause.

[sjseabass]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

wanting out of the EU in an unprepared way and with cake and eat it - the policy of both main parties - is one ONLY for the loonies.

If you care to notice, McD and Jez are currently threatening the same hard brexit as Rees Mogg.

I don't give much of a fuck what their reasons are for wanting brexit, I give a fuck about the consequences that any brexit will cause.

I agree. All we disagree on here is essentially what we’re using ‘loonie’ to refer to.

I was referring specifically to the madness from Hoey and others that zahidf flagged up above, about universities indoctrinating students to be Remainers, campaigners for a 2nd ref being brought before international criminal courts, etc. I don’t think that anyone who has ever supported Brexit deserves to be tarred with that brush, as pink_triangle did. Do you?

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, theevilfridge said:

I agree. All we disagree on here is essentially what we’re using ‘loonie’ to refer to.

I was referring specifically to the madness from Hoey and others that zahidf flagged up above, about universities indoctrinating students to be Remainers, campaigners for a 2nd ref being brought before international criminal courts, etc. I don’t think that anyone who has ever supported Brexit deserves to be tarred with that brush, as pink_triangle did. Do you?

Brexit is mad; anyone supporting brexit is mad.

There's no redeeming features about Brexit to separate out anything anyone might have said around the edges.

I've actually got more respect for Hoey about her approach to Brexit than I have Corbyn and McD, because at least Hoey is saying what she's thinking, wanting, and pushing for. Jez and McD are trying to pretend they'd bend and stop brexit when I don't think they have any intention of doing that under any circumstances.

[lost]

Well Starmer has just put the cat amongst the pigeons at the Labour Party conference and made a speech which was completely different to Milne’s pre-brief one that labour released. He contradicted McDonnell on the radio yesterday too. It can’t be easy for labour politics to push the official line of we need a general election and then labour will negotiate a better leave deal as when pushed on how the deal will be better they don’t know what to say. The mp from I think it was York was completely taken apart on the news yesterday trying to push that line.

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, theevilfridge said:

I agree. All we disagree on here is essentially what we’re using ‘loonie’ to refer to.

I was referring specifically to the madness from Hoey and others that zahidf flagged up above, about universities indoctrinating students to be Remainers, campaigners for a 2nd ref being brought before international criminal courts, etc. I don’t think that anyone who has ever supported Brexit deserves to be tarred with that brush, as pink_triangle did. Do you?

There is no sense in voting the country poorer. If we go through Brexit it won't be the likes of Corbyn, Mclusky, Lansmanand Owen Jones who will take the biggest hit.

The idea that Brexit is worth accepting because Corbyn will give us a socialist government is mad. As I have said I think labour electing a pro Brexit leader for the referendum could end up one of the biggest mistakes in their history. Hoey may have some stupid views, but unlike Corbyn has no real influence.

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, lost said:

Well Starmer has just put the cat amongst the pigeons at the Labour Party conference and made a speech which was completely different to Milne’s pre-brief one that labour released. He contradicted McDonnell on the radio yesterday too. It can’t be easy for labour politics to push the official line of we need a general election and then labour will negotiate a better leave deal as when pushed on how the deal will be better they don’t know what to say. The mp from I think it was York was completely taken apart on the news yesterday trying to push that line.

I imagine it must be frustrating being an intelligent bloke like Starmer and having to deal with Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott.

[sjseabass]

27 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

There is no sense in voting the country poorer. If we go through Brexit it won't be the likes of Corbyn, Mclusky, Lansmanand Owen Jones who will take the biggest hit.

The idea that Brexit is worth accepting because Corbyn will give us a socialist government is mad. As I have said I think labour electing a pro Brexit leader for the referendum could end up one of the biggest mistakes in their history. Hoey may have some stupid views, but unlike Corbyn has no real influence.

But you backed Hoey at the moment she and her three pals did have the power to make a difference on Brexit! You spent a week arguing the exact opposite thing to me!

[feral chile]

32 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

There is no sense in voting the country poorer. If we go through Brexit it won't be the likes of Corbyn, Mclusky, Lansmanand Owen Jones who will take the biggest hit.

The idea that Brexit is worth accepting because Corbyn will give us a socialist government is mad. As I have said I think labour electing a pro Brexit leader for the referendum could end up one of the biggest mistakes in their history. Hoey may have some stupid views, but unlike Corbyn has no real influence.

Yeah it's the one thing I disagree with him over. The rest of the stuff, I take with a pinch of salt, because I believe he's a naive do-gooder. I still think that's behind his Brexit stance. But getting rid of competition for jobs won't matter if those jobs disappear.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, theevilfridge said:

But you backed Hoey at the moment she and her three pals did have the power to make a difference on Brexit! You spent a week arguing the exact opposite thing to me!

It's wrong if MPs vote against brexit; it's wrong if they vote for brexit.
(true story of the Labour party & supporters, 2016-18!)

Meanwhile, I think it's fair enough to say that Hoey and co were voting with their principles about brexit, when members say principles are something to be admired (but only if your name is Jeremy, who's often been just as wrong).

I don't 'back' Hoey, but I do accept that it's unlikely that all MPs of a party will always feel able to support the party line. An amount of descent should be expected and accepted.

[pink_triangle]

4 minutes ago, theevilfridge said:

But you backed Hoey at the moment she and her three pals did have the power to make a difference on Brexit! You spent a week arguing the exact opposite thing to me!

Again not wanting to go over old ground, but I thought (and still think) it was bullshit that labour were close to bringing the government down. Even if true a Corbyn led government won't stop Brexit, he is a greater ideological supporter than May.

I have no issue with labour Mps like Hoey and Corbyn being allowed to have different views to me on Brexit, I accept that many (admittedly not close to a majority) of labour supporters think the same.

However it is clear that the labour leader has more power than a backbench mp, which is why I favour leadership change. It is complete madness for a Brexiteer to lead such an anti Brexit party. The thing is I don't think most labour members realised he was a Brexiteer when they voted him in, while they think he is going to change course now in power, despite the membership saying he must stay in at all costs.

[sjseabass]

16 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Again not wanting to go over old ground, but I thought (and still think) it was bullshit that labour were close to bringing the government down. Even if true a Corbyn led government won't stop Brexit, he is a greater ideological supporter than May.

I have no issue with labour Mps like Hoey and Corbyn being allowed to have different views to me on Brexit, I accept that many (admittedly not close to a majority) of labour supporters think the same.

However it is clear that the labour leader has more power than a backbench mp, which is why I favour leadership change. It is complete madness for a Brexiteer to lead such an anti Brexit party. The thing is I don't think most labour members realised he was a Brexiteer when they voted him in, while they think he is going to change course now in power, despite the membership saying he must stay in at all costs.

Fine. I still think losing that vote would have at least got us to the point we’re at now, where there’s consensus that May’s plans are unworkable, it just would’ve been Parliament proving it rather than the EU, and then we’d have had an extra 2 months to try to sort things out before exit day. And I still believe Labour are more likely to stop Brexit than the Tories regardless of who is in charge.

I wasn’t intending to open this argument up again, I was just making a narrow point that it is unfair to smear anyone who has ever supported Brexit as lining up with the view that 2nd referendum campaigners should go to jail.

[zahidf]