This morning...

[Ommadawn]

Edited November 19, 2016 by Ommadawn

[fur_q]

20 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

Na the east Enders had the right Idea 

[zahidf]

You can have a go at right wing racists who hate darkies and vote for brexit and trump.

 

Or you can have a go at lefties who get a bit overly passionate sometimes but at the end of the day wont support death camps for muslims.

 

The trump and Brexit voters are more likely to. If they dont want that to be the end game, they need to SAY THAT NOW.

[Ommadawn]

4 minutes ago, zahidf said:

You can have a go at right wing racists who hate darkies and vote for brexit and trump.

 

Or you can have a go at lefties who get a bit overly passionate sometimes but at the end of the day wont support death camps for muslims.

 

The trump and Brexit voters are more likely to. If they dont want that to be the end game, they need to SAY THAT NOW.

Why are you lumping Brexit and Trump voters together? I'm a 'leftie' who voted for Brexit but wouldn't dream of voting for Trump. Immigration wasn't even on my list of considerations when I made my decision on voting Leave. I suppose in your warped little world, that makes me a racist?

[zahidf]

36 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

Why are you lumping Brexit and Trump voters together? I'm a 'leftie' who voted for Brexit but wouldn't dream of voting for Trump. Immigration wasn't even on my list of considerations when I made my decision on voting Leave. I suppose in your warped little world, that makes me a racist?

Why did you vote for Leave then?

Because we have a Tory govt who will shape leave. Sorry, but Lexit was practically never going to happen. Every credible left wing organisation wanted lefties to vote Remain. 

As a leftie, are you ok with a vote which lead to a limit freedom of movement? and an increase of ill feeling towards immigrants?

 

You cant vote the same way as UKIP and the BNP (Or the GOP and KKK in Trumps case) and pretend to be surprised when people are annoyed by your choice of vote. Why have you sided with the most regressive side of society?

Edited November 20, 2016 by zahidf

[midnight]

23 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Why did you vote for Leave then?

Because we have a Tory govt who will shape leave. Sorry, but Lexit was practically never going to happen. Every credible left wing organisation wanted lefties to vote Remain. 

As a leftie, are you ok with a vote which lead to a limit freedom of movement? and an increase of ill feeling towards immigrants?

 

You cant vote the same way as UKIP and the BNP (Or the GOP and KKK in Trumps case) and pretend to be surprised when people are annoyed by your choice of vote. Why have you sided with the most regressive side of society?

Being a (lefty) European immigrant in the UK, that is indeed a question that has baffled me for months. I'd really like to see an answer that goes beyond the generic: "but it wasn't about YOU, love, you'll be alright". I'm not alright, and I won't be, but i can't pack up and go back "home", as both my private and work situation are hopelessly entangled with living in the UK now. Funny old world.  

 

[zahidf]

25 minutes ago, midnight said:

Being a (lefty) European immigrant in the UK, that is indeed a question that has baffled me for months. I'd really like to see an answer that goes beyond the generic: "but it wasn't about YOU, love, you'll be alright". I'm not alright, and I won't be, but i can't pack up and go back "home", as both my private and work situation are hopelessly entangled with living in the UK now. Funny old world.  

 

Thats the thing. Ive yet to see any Leave position which seems to care about people whose life will be ruined by us leaving the EU. And no perusasive reason why anyones life will be improved practically by a Leave or Trump vote 

[Alex DeLarge]

So Trump has started a Twitter argument with the Cast of Hamilton and is demanding an apology for their 'harassment' (citation needed) of Pence. He tweeted about them around an hour ago and still seems to be angry a day afterwards. 

Hopefully by January he's grown up a bit and doesn't resort to petty arguments with a group of people who have no political power, but I'm not holding my breath.

[JacquelineS]

What actually happened was that the audience  booed Pence when he arrived and later during curtain call the cast of Hamilton came out and made this speech which was fairly reasonable. Quoting from CoS-

"During the curtain call, the cast of Hamilton returned to the stage to address Pence directly. Speaking on behalf of the group, actor Brandon Victor Dixon said, “I see you walking out but I hope you will hear us. We welcome you, and we truly thank you for joining us here at Hamilton: An American Musical — we really do.”

Dixon continued: “We are the diverse America, who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us, our planet, our children, our parents, or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights. But we truly hope this show has inspired you to uphold our American values, and work on behalf of all of us.”

“We truly thank you for sharing this show, this wonderful American story told by a diverse group of men and women of different colors, creeds and orientations,” he concluded."

But Slate is a little more slammy -it  has an article that delves into Pence's cruel and inhuman actions during the aids epidemic of the 80's which hit Broadway hard.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2016/11/19/mike_pence_was_booed_at_hamilton_on_broadway.html



 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2016 by JacquelineS

[eFestivals]

21 hours ago, zahidf said:

I posted his voting record from earlier. He voted against most legislation designed to help minorities. over the years. I doubt its a coincidence.

So everyone has to agree with you, else they're damned forever...? Are people allowed different opinions, or not?

Is there any point to elections where a different point of view to your own might win, or not?

People are calling Trump a fascist, while saying that any political choice different to their own should not be allowed.

 

And then also, no nuances are allowed. Any legislation to help minorities *MUST* be approved.

It's impossible in minds such as zahidf's that someone might feel minorities are better helped by methods different to the legislation that matey rejected. 

I think some people need to step away from Trump and have a good look at themselves, before delving into the world of Trump.

[eFestivals]

18 hours ago, zahidf said:

all political elections are divisive, so I guess the only allowable outcome to deny politicians the "start" you claim they're making thru division is to not allow elections.

People have different views to me, those people shouldn't be allowed?

Who's the fascist, again....?

 

[eFestivals]

14 hours ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

The point about fascism not arriving wearing jackboots and skull insignias is still valid, though.

True, but if you follow that idea thru, it means you can label anything you want as the start down that path - which hopefully wakes you up to how meaningless that line is without a real context for 'why' things might go down that path.

I'm not sat here thinking it's impossible Trump might tread some of that path, but neither am i sat here thinking it's beyond all doubt. 

What I do know is that Trump won the democratic contest, and if I expect 'my' side to be allowed to make a difference thru politics in any future election I have to respect the same for this contest.

Protest the evil that Trump does. Don't protest Trump.

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, fur_q said:

Exactly this, generally can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading on this thread, it it quacks like a duck I'm calling it a duck and for everyone  claiming  I/you/they are not racist you're either lying or you don't understand racism. 

All tory voters want to denigrate the lives of the disabled or the unemployed?

All Labour voters are against anyone with more than the money to live on that month...?

Because the tories aren't as 'for' minority rights as Labour is, all tories are indisputably racist?

FFS.

There is more than a clear and distinct and unalterable evil about those who supported Trump.

Some people say he hates all Muslims because he's talked about a Muslim register, but isn't it just as possible to think that Clinton hates Muslims more? After all, Clinton is the one who's been dropping bombs on Muslims while Trump has been saying he'd stop killing Muslims with bombs.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, zahidf said:

You can have a go at right wing racists who hate darkies and vote for brexit and trump.

 

Or you can have a go at lefties who get a bit overly passionate sometimes but at the end of the day wont support death camps for muslims.

 

The trump and Brexit voters are more likely to. If they dont want that to be the end game, they need to SAY THAT NOW.

Likewise,. all Muslim's in Britain need to line up and make clear in their own words to the British public that they're against 'Islamic terrorism'.

No?

Why does it apply to Trumpers, but not Muslims? Both have chosen to associate themselves with something 'bad'.

When your double standards are screaming so loudly at the Trumpers that you're an utter hypocrite, why might those Trumpers think you have the answers?

Why might those Trumpers decide that the better side is the one with the hypocrite as cheerleader?

Why might those Trumpers desert Trump to stand side by side with hypocrites?

Edited November 20, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

Why are you lumping Brexit and Trump voters together? I'm a 'leftie' who voted for Brexit but wouldn't dream of voting for Trump. Immigration wasn't even on my list of considerations when I made my decision on voting Leave. I suppose in your warped little world, that makes me a racist?

because zahidf is the man who posted on these forums that all brexiters are deliberate racists.

Just as he's now posting that all Trumpers are deliberate racists.

He also says it's bad - "nazism", definitely nothing lesser - to write off a group of people with words.

He's talking about his own nazism.

 

Edited November 20, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, zahidf said:

Because we have a Tory govt who will shape leave. Sorry, but Lexit was practically never going to happen. Every credible left wing organisation wanted lefties to vote Remain. 

That's put you in your place @Ommadawn 

Only zahidf can tell you when you're allowed to have hopes, just as only he is allowed to decide which left wing groups are credible.

Tho maybe zahidf's fascism wasn't what you were voting for?

 

[Ommadawn]

8 hours ago, zahidf said:

Why did you vote for Leave then?

Because for me there was much more the leaving the EU than the immigration issue.

Because we have a Tory govt who will shape leave. Sorry, but Lexit was practically never going to happen. Every credible left wing organisation wanted lefties to vote Remain. 

In that case they totally misjudged the mood of the people (again).

As a leftie, are you ok with a vote which lead to a limit freedom of movement?

Yes of course, and I think you will find that full freedom of movement will soon become curtailed in the rest of the EU. I don't see why it's so important to be honest - it isn't an issue anywhere outside the EU and other countries manage just fine without it.

and an increase of ill feeling towards immigrants?

No - that's unexcusable and unacceptable but it was always there in the background before Brexit.

You cant vote the same way as UKIP and the BNP (Or the GOP and KKK in Trumps case) and pretend to be surprised when people are annoyed by your choice of vote. Why have you sided with the most regressive side of society?

I'm not surprised - just baffled when I read the apocalyptic forecasts spouted by people on here and elsewhere when they don't have a clue what might happen in the year ahead. I guess I'm much older than most people on here and have lived through similar times and once I would probably have felt the same as you but not any more as I know once people achieve power, they tend to moderate their actions. You still might not like their policies of course.

What really does concern me are the comments I read here about re-running elections to get the results you want. That really is scary.   

 

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, midnight said:

Being a (lefty) European immigrant in the UK, that is indeed a question that has baffled me for months. I'd really like to see an answer that goes beyond the generic: "but it wasn't about YOU, love, you'll be alright". I'm not alright, and I won't be, but i can't pack up and go back "home", as both my private and work situation are hopelessly entangled with living in the UK now. Funny old world.  

 

I sympathise with your situation Kat, you know I do.

But understand that just as you have your priorities about you, others have their priorities about them. Both of you are equally permitted to pursue your wants.

Any change of priorities always has someone on the shit end of the stick, that's just how it is. If Corbyn got elected it would be "the rich" on the shit end of the stick, but no one like zahidf would be saying that's not allowed to happen.

i'm not trying to justify anything about brexit, I'm simply pointing out that people are allowed to make these sorts of choices.

[SwedgeAntilles]

Tell you what, if anyone thought Trump and Co were going to be incompetent just have a look at the way they've used the Hamilton Theatre thing to keep the university settlement out of the news. 

I'm not sure anyone would have still being underestimating him after the election victory but just a reminder that the attacks will need to be strategical and not just ad-hoc in order to make an impact.

[zahidf]

50 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Likewise,. all Muslim's in Britain need to line up and make clear in their own words to the British public that they're against 'Islamic terrorism'.

No?

Why does it apply to Trumpers, but not Muslims? Both have chosen to associate themselves with something 'bad'.

When your double standards are screaming so loudly at the Trumpers that you're an utter hypocrite, why might those Trumpers think you have the answers?

Why might those Trumpers decide that the better side is the one with the hypocrite as cheerleader?

Why might those Trumpers desert Trump to stand side by side with hypocrites?

Nah, im not saying all Tories or Republicans need to explain themselves for voting that way.

If a muslim gives money or support to an extreme muslim organisation who carries out attacks, then yes, an explanation is needed. 

Trump and Brexit voters have voted for an extremist position.

Edited November 20, 2016 by zahidf

[zahidf]

36 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I sympathise with your situation Kat, you know I do.

But understand that just as you have your priorities about you, others have their priorities about them. Both of you are equally permitted to pursue your wants.

Any change of priorities always has someone on the shit end of the stick, that's just how it is. If Corbyn got elected it would be "the rich" on the shit end of the stick, but no one like zahidf would be saying that's not allowed to happen.

i'm not trying to justify anything about brexit, I'm simply pointing out that people are allowed to make these sorts of choices.

The rich under Corbyn may have to pay extra tax. May not being able to buy a second boat

The poor and refugees post Trump and Brexit will have their lifes ruined.

 

So not comparable

[eFestivals]

31 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Nah, im not saying all Tories or Republicans need to explain themselves for voting that way.

If a muslim gives money or support to an extreme muslim organisation who carries out attacks, then yes, an explanation is needed. 

Trump and Brexit voters have voted for an extremist position.

You really are up your own arse, aren't you?

It's simply not possible for a right-minded person to reach a different conclusion to you. 

If they've reached a different conclusion to you, the very fact of them reaching a different conclsuion proves them an extremist,.

And it's wrong of Trump to write off everything about a grouping he has a different opinion about, but it's right and proper that you write off everything about a grouping that has a different opinion to you.

You are a fascist and your name is Donald and I claim my five pounds dollars.

[eFestivals]

42 minutes ago, zahidf said:

The rich under Corbyn may have to pay extra tax. May not being able to buy a second boat

The poor and refugees post Trump and Brexit will have their lifes ruined.

 

So not comparable

It's indisputable that everything about a foriegner's life in Britain will be ruined by brexit?

And it's impossible for anyone with surplus cash to rightly think their life has been ruined by the removal of any surplus cash? 

This is what the smart people think, apparently.

I guess I either have to agree with the self-ordained smart people - and i'm not allowed to disagree with even the smallest part - or else i have to vote for Donald.

Now, if only the smart people could work out why people voted for Donald, they'd be really smart.

Edited November 20, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

52 minutes ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

Tell you what, if anyone thought Trump and Co were going to be incompetent just have a look at the way they've used the Hamilton Theatre thing to keep the university settlement out of the news. 

I'm not sure anyone would have still being underestimating him after the election victory but just a reminder that the attacks will need to be strategical and not just ad-hoc in order to make an impact.

what by keeping the Trump university thing on the front page of the Guardian for most of yesterday and all over the BBC? PMSL.

Jesus, and people claim Trumpers live on a different planet. 

 

[SwedgeAntilles]

13 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

what by keeping the Trump university thing on the front page of the Guardian for most of yesterday and all over the BBC? PMSL.

Jesus, and people claim Trumpers live on a different planet. 

 

So you don't think Hamilton became the bigger story?