Women only venue

[marktea]

Satire or not, the debate shows the 'need' and why this is already a great idea.

So much of the best politics at the festival - whether satire or not or whether anyone agrees with it or not - is when it throws up another view that challenges or questions our individual idea of what is 'normal'.

This is already working brilliantly.

 

 

[stuartbert two hats]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

This. ^^

Nicely put, stu.

Next up, will we have someone claiming here that freedom to choose is a leftish ideal? Oh no, that was last week, but the focus on me-me-me still seems to be hanging around.

Yeah, I saw that one. Seemed to have completely the wrong end of the stick about what left/right meant!

[jonodillieono]

8 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

I think it is.  I can't believe everyone is taking it at face value.  That's not to say it's a criticism of such places, but it seems obvious to me that the primary motivation for the venue is social commentary, not out of a burning need for a woman only place at Glastonbury.

I didn't believe it was until I read that guardian article where the quote's used made it sound like it was a serious thing. I don't believe the debates over a womans only venue are going to lead to anything of benefit for feminism though. It'll just lead to feminist's praising the idea and then non-feminists claiming it's fighting inequality with inequality by being sexist towards men. I don't believe it's going to convert any non-feminists to believe in the feminist cause and it's going to have some adverse effects with people thinking feminists are living up to their typical man-hating ways as usual. 

11 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Maybe you're the subject of the satire....

I hope so

[Bradders]

12 minutes ago, jonodillieono said:

I didn't believe it was until I read that guardian article where the quote's used made it sound like it was a serious thing. I don't believe the debates over a womans only venue are going to lead to anything of benefit for feminism though. It'll just lead to feminist's praising the idea and then non-feminists claiming it's fighting inequality with inequality by being sexist towards men. I don't believe it's going to convert any non-feminists to believe in the feminist cause and it's going to have some adverse effects with people thinking feminists are living up to their typical man-hating ways as usual. 

I hope so

Not if you actually listen to what they're saying it won't.

[Memory Man]

5 hours ago, mrf said:

Maybe its needed because to have certain discussions and openness, the people in the discussion need to feel safe first (and that is psychologically, physically and emotionally). Theres elements here that, to the people involved, will be far bigger and all consuming than something they will happily bring up in a room full of people which will undoubtedly contain tourists and people hiding from the rain.

If it doesnt affect you, but supports and puts at ease someone that it does, then does it matter that you cant attend? And if it does affect you, then youre already on the invite list.

The fact that the people involved feel its needed, means its needed. It isnt done just so people can get together and agree that men are all bad.

fantastic post.

[jonodillieono]

5 minutes ago, Bradders said:

Not if you actually listen to what they're saying it won't.

Which is what exactly?

[Memory Man]

Its shangri la. Its supposed to encourage debate and make people think and to that end some success has already been achieved! Until unwelcome comments in the street all the way through to rape ceases to exist then equality hasn't been achieved and feminism will always exist. If women want to celebrate togetherness and solidarity against this then I, as a man, am all for it.

There are other debates on feminism at glastonbury this year at which men can attend (leftfield, speakers forum) or you can go enjoy every other stage that there is.

[CaledonianGonzo]

28 minutes ago, jonodillieono said:

I don't believe it's going to convert any non-feminists to believe in the feminist cause and it's going to have some adverse effects with people thinking feminists are living up to their typical man-hating ways as usual. 

Not everything that feminists do should be geared towards making men / misogynists feel cosy and included.

[jonodillieono]

12 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Not everything that feminists do should be geared towards making men / misogynists feel cosy and included.

Well no but surely the whole point is to try and stop misogynists from existing and I can only see them looking at this venue as another man-hating venture by misandrists. I'm not sure how this womans only microvenue club at Glastonbury is going to make any misogynistic person stop and think how bad women have it these days if anything it's just going to add more fuel to the "what's the point of feminist in the modern era" fire that they have burning.

Sure there might be information about the gender pay gap, the amount of sexual assault in Britiain, the glass ceiling problem in big corporations etc but I'm pretty sure all that all that stuff is going to be inside the venue. The misogynists won't see this, they'll just see the outside and see another man-hating endeavor.

Sure you don't need to include them but as these are the people feminists are fighting directly and the war on inequality won't be won until these people change their ways then surely ignoring them and preaching to the already converted while giving the enemy some more ammunition is completely counterproductive? 

[CaledonianGonzo]

The expectation that it might "stop misogynists from existing" seems a bit of a burden.  A  - what? - 50 person capacity microvenue in a festival is never going to achieve such a lofty aim regardless of its door policy, and I'm fairly that's not what it's trying to do.  It's not trying to be all things to all people.

I'm not going to make any claims on what exactly they are trying to achieve - if anything, other than as a hang out - but for me it's enough that there are plenty of women who feel that places like this serve a purpose, and it's not for me to tell them that they're wrong.

[Dave F.]

1 hour ago, stuartbert two hats said:

All you pissy white men throwing a tantrum because a micro venue excludes you - you're the joke!

If men need educating on their attitude towards women, then there has to be discussion with them. Exclusion & segregation can not do that.

General Q: I haven't read all the column inches on this, but where did this new venue get defined as a 'safe space'?

[The_Amazing_Oblong]

Reading the article the thing that made me laugh out loud was this ;

Quote

where there will be live music, DJs and workshops on intersectionality, diversity and inclusion.

Lol - An exclusive venue with workshops on inclusion. Still laughing..

If they want people to stop thinking of modern feminism as a joke then they should really stop delivering punchlines.

[CaledonianGonzo]

6 minutes ago, Dave F. said:

If men need educating on their attitude towards women, then there has to be discussion with them. Exclusion & segregation can not do that.

General Q: I haven't read all the column inches on this, but where did this new venue get defined as a 'safe space'?

When did it get defined as an educational space for men?

[stuartbert two hats]

11 minutes ago, Dave F. said:

 

General Q: I haven't read all the column inches on this, but where did this new venue get defined as a 'safe space'?

That was me making an assumption.

[zico martin]

Isnt this thread the whole point of having this zone then : discussion, debate and acknowledgement of the issues?

[CaledonianGonzo]

3 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

That was me making an assumption.

The official blurb doesn't use that exact term, but it's more or less implicit in the wording.

[CaledonianGonzo]

8 minutes ago, The_Amazing_Oblong said:

If they want people to stop thinking of modern feminism as a joke then they should really stop delivering punchlines.

Why should they go out of their way to accommodate people who think that feminism is a joke?

[willsnewman]

6 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Why should they go out of their way to accommodate people who think that feminism is a joke?

Because those are the people they need to educate and gain support from, not just the people who are already all for equality.

[CaledonianGonzo]

4 minutes ago, willsnewman said:

Because those are the people they need to educate and gain support from, not just the people who are already all for equality.

 

22 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

When did it get defined as an educational space for men?

 

1 hour ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Not everything that feminists do should be geared towards making men / misogynists feel cosy and included.

 

[The_Amazing_Oblong]

6 minutes ago, willsnewman said:

Because those are the people they need to educate and gain support from, not just the people who are already all for equality.

Here we go. Don't go labelling me. I totally believe in equality. I don't believe in feminism. They are not tied together in any way, believing in one dies not mean you have to believe in the other. Feminism as far as I have seen it in it's many guises over the last 30 years has had very little to do with equality.

That is a seperate topic if anyone wants to open that can of worms.

[giantkatestacks]

This is why we cant have nice things.

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, willsnewman said:

Because those are the people they need to educate and gain support from, not just the people who are already all for equality.

because the passively-going-along-with-men's-rules that you suggest has worked very well for women so far...?

 

[Bradders]

For fuck's sake, a small group of people decide to set up a miniscule section of the festival to give women a free zone to have fun and discuss issues they may not feel comfortable with in a group of men and those men tell them they're doing feminism wrong.

[willsnewman]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

because the passively-going-along-with-men's-rules that you suggest has worked very well for women so far...?

 

That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that such a venue should absolutely exist for discussion and campaigning for equality, but that discussion should be open to everyone. We would have a dedicated platform for campaigning for women, but it would not exclude the very people that they wish to educate.

[CaledonianGonzo]

 

Just now, willsnewman said:

That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that such a venue should absolutely exist for discussion and campaigning for equality, but that discussion should be open to everyone. We would have a dedicated platform for campaigning for women, but it would not exclude the very people that they wish to educate.

Actually, they say they want to educate other women.  The wording doesn't mention discussions with men at all.  You just seem to have assumed that.