The Dirty Independence Question

[Comfy Bean]

23 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

a region is a region is a region.

If the region of the UK called Scotland has the 'right' to not go along with the country's decision, then the region of Scotland called Edinburgh also has the same right to not go along with the country's decision.

What don't you understand?

 

Nothing.

I understand your viewpoint. It's all you have and I accept you are clinging to it.

Most people view Wales as a Country. You don't. Very few people on the planet share , or care about your view on Wales not being a Country. Carry on....

In fairness there was that unionist lady on qt who came out with the " we voted as a region " patter but we have already discussed that.

 

[eFestivals]

2 hours ago, LJS said:

Christ, Gordon Brown has been activated! Things must be bad!

Gordon Brown proposes federal 'third option' for Scotland

https://stv.tv/amp/1383355-gordon-brown-proposes-federal-third-option-for-scotland/

 

Gordon Brown proposes option that ensures no Scottish EU deal.

Meanwhile, care to tell me why you'd accept an option like that which limits Scottish sovereignty, when the current matter would still be outside of what federalism would give Scotland powers over?

[eFestivals]

2 hours ago, LJS said:

The UK will have to reach a Brexit deal by October 2018, according to the EU's chief negotiator for Brexit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-38221140

That may or may not be the case, but even if it is it doesn't mean it's public at that point.

And even if it's all out in the open, we still have no idea what it will really mean in its effect. 

Given that a supposed horrible UK after brexit is the reason for the ref, it's not unreasonable to say 'wait and see if it's really that' - and if it's all as horrible as you keep suggesting indy would be guaranteed for you at that time, and you'd get none of the shit that will come with indy now.

It's a forever decision that you're claiming is vitally important on the basis of a 'perhaps'. 

And you reckon only May is being unreasonable?

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Nothing.

I understand your viewpoint. It's all you have and I accept you are clinging to it.

Most people view Wales as a Country. You don't. Very few people on the planet share , or care about your view on Wales not being a Country. Carry on....

In fairness there was that unionist lady on qt who came out with the " we voted as a region " patter but we have already discussed that.

 

My viewpoint that's "all I have" is a logical consistency, FFS.

Whether you like it or not, Scotland *IS* a region of the UK. And in what I wrote, I accepted Scotland's self-claimed status as a country, too.

If a region of a country can opt out, a region of a country can opt out.  

If Scotland can opt-out of a whole-UK decision, then Edinburgh can opt-out of a whole-Scotland decision. If one is right so is the other, and if one is wrong so is the other.

Or you're just taking a selfish self-serving view and there's no moral principle to it.

[lost]

Dictionary definition Scotland is actually a nation 

Quote

There is a difference between the terms nation, state, and country, even though the words are often used interchangeably. Country and State are synonymous terms that both apply to self-governing political entities. A nation, however, is a group of people who share the same culture but do not have sovereignty.

Thats why the scottish football team are or should always be called the nation of Scotland.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, lost said:

Dictionary definition Scotland is actually a nation 

I'd say it doesn't matter a fuck. History gives no current extra rights in the civic world - which the SNP and their supporters like to claim is what their campaign is about.

 

[lost]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'd say it doesn't matter a fuck. History gives no current extra rights in the civic world - which the SNP and their supporters like to claim is what their campaign is about.

 

Agreed plus I don't really like the cultural definition as it could equally describe different regions of the UK. There are bigger cultural differences between say London and Liverpool than London and Edinburgh.

I only remembered it because someone gave either Scotland or Wales as an answer to a country question on pointless and its of course a wrong as answer they are not countries. The pointless hosts ended up getting a huge amount of abuse on twitter so had to come out and explain the difference.. 

Edited March 18, 2017 by lost

[Comfy Bean]

30 minutes ago, lost said:

Agreed plus I don't really like the cultural definition as it could equally describe different regions of the UK. There are bigger cultural differences between say London and Liverpool than London and Edinburgh.

I only remembered it because someone gave either Scotland or Wales as an answer to a country question on pointless and its of course a wrong as answer they are not countries. The pointless hosts ended up getting a huge amount of abuse on twitter so had to come out and explain the difference.. 

Pointless being an appropriate example :-)

[Comfy Bean]

35 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'd say it doesn't matter a fuck. 

 

Agreed.

[lost]

7 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Pointless being an appropriate example :-)

Well as they are taking it from a dictionary I can't think of a better example. Obviously as its an "English language" dictionary its massively biased against the scots and was probably written by a tory or something.

Edited March 18, 2017 by lost

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Agreed.

So why do Salmond & Sturgeon both keep saying it, and to claim greater rights by it?

That's absolutely no doubt that Salmond was doing that in the HoC this week, with his "being treated like a county not a country" guff.

And you and every other snipper claim to support equality, and then don't condemn your leader who claims you have extra-special rights.

[lost]

4 minutes ago, lost said:

Well as they are taking it from a dictionary I can't think of a better example. Obviously as its an "English language" dictionary its massively biased against the scots and was probably written by a tory or something.

Fuck me I just googled it and he is:

Quote

Samuel Johnson (18 September 1709 [O.S. 7 September] – 13 December 1784), often referred to as Dr. Johnson, was an English writer who made lasting contributions to English literature as a poet, essayist, moralist, literary critic, biographer, editor and lexicographer. Johnson was a devout Anglican and committed Tory,

After nine years of work, Johnson's A Dictionary of the English Language was published in 1755. It had a far-reaching effect on Modern English and has been described as "one of the greatest single achievements of scholarship".[3] This work brought Johnson popularity and success. Until the completion of the Oxford English Dictionary 150 years later, Johnson's was viewed as the pre-eminent British dictionary

Yeah he's definitely biased against the SNP:

Quote

Samuel Johnson made the famous pronouncement that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel on the evening of April 7, 1775.

 

[Comfy Bean]

2 hours ago, lost said:

Well as they are taking it from a dictionary I can't think of a better example. Obviously as its an "English language" dictionary its massively biased against the scots and was probably written by a tory or something.

 

[Comfy Bean]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

So why do Salmond & Sturgeon both keep saying it, and to claim greater rights by it?

That's absolutely no doubt that Salmond was doing that in the HoC this week, with his "being treated like a county not a country" guff.

And you and every other snipper claim to support equality, and then don't condemn your leader who claims you have extra-special rights.

My leader 

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

My leader 

it's a campaign you support that they lead, and where you just about never criticise them.

Even here, when you could have proven that you do criticise them, you chose to criticise something else entirely unrelated to the subject under discussion - and so proved that he *IS* your leader.

 

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

.......and so proved that he *IS* your leader.

 

[LJS]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

Christ, Gordon Brown has been activated! Things must be bad!

Gordon Brown proposes federal 'third option' for Scotland

https://stv.tv/amp/1383355-gordon-brown-proposes-federal-third-option-for-scotland/

 

 

7 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Gordon Brown proposes option that ensures no Scottish EU deal.

Meanwhile, care to tell me why you'd accept an option like that which limits Scottish sovereignty, when the current matter would still be outside of what federalism would give Scotland powers over?

 

I wouldn't - what made you think I'd accept it - its a joke.

It's desperate and frankly embarrassing stuff from the pro union side who are clearly panicking.

[kaosmark2]

"Once in a lifetime opportunity"

*Lifetime of a typical Scot as judged by watching Trainspotting 

[LJS]

The Unionist Twitersphere is aflame with excitement as they claim to have discovered that the SNP doesn't really have a proper mandate for Indyref2. 

This has been sparked by a blog by their Chancer of the Exchequer and Neil's hero Kevin Hague...

 

Quote

 

The SNP's Indyref2 Mandate

 

There's a lot of nonsense being talked about the SNP's mandate to request a second independence referendum, so I thought I'd try and very quickly clear it up.

https://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/

 

 

To summarise: The SNP's public pronouncements claimed they would hold a 2nd ref "if it becomes clear that a majority of people in Scotland want independence"

Their "easy- read manifest said this too. 

To find their mandate based on being dragged out of Europe against our will you have to trawl through their full manifesto where you  will find it - "not in the Summary, not in the Vision, not in the Next Steps, but on the left-hand side of page 23"

He likens this to "Amazon pointing out that they can do pretty much whatever they like with your personal data because you ticked their Terms & Conditions box"

The clear implication is that they sneaked that in there where they thought no-one would notice and somehow duped the voters.

As I said the Pro Uk Twitterers love it

There's just one tiny wee problem with this position

It's pish!

BBC news website 1st May 2016

"The SNP manifesto for the Scottish Parliament election does not promise a second independence referendum within the next five year term.

However, it says Holyrood should have the right to hold another referendum if there is "clear and sustained evidence" of majority support for independence, or if there is a "significant and material" change in circumstances, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against its will".

 

Telegraph 1st May 2016

"Instead the manifesto states the SNP reserves the right to stage another referendum if there is “clear and sustained evidence” that a majority of Scots support independence or there is a “significant and material change” such as Britain leaving the EU."

 

Guardian 1st May 2016

"Unlike its clear pledge to stage one in the 2011 Holyrood manifesto, it does not commit the SNP to stage a referendum in this parliament: instead, it says one could be held if there is a material change in Scotland’s circumstances, such as vote to leave the EU against the wishes of Scottish voters"

 

Telegraph 24th April 2016

"Ms Sturgeon added: “If we are taken out of the EU against our will I will want to give the people of Scotland the opportunity to protect our EU membership by looking again at the question of independence. I will obviously judge the circumstances of that at the time, should that situation arise.”

 

Daily Record 25th April 2016 (headline)

"Nicola Sturgeon: Brexit vote would 'almost certainly' trigger second independence referendum"

 

BBC website 24th April 216 (headline)

Sturgeon: Independence poll 'highly likely' if UK leaves EU

 

I could go on but it is clear there was absolutely no secret about this adn to pretend otherwise is disingenuous at best & downright dishonest at worst.  

[LJS]

Hey Neil & Barry, Lost, PT, Kaos & all the rest of you guys, in case you missed it Nicola issued an invitation to y'all. Come & join us.

 

Quote

 

So let me issue this open invitation today.

 

Scotland isn't full up.

 

If you are as appalled as we are at the path this Westminster government is taking, come and join us.

 

Come here to live, work, invest or study.

 

Come to Scotland - and be part of building a modern, progressive, outward-looking, compassionate country.

 

 

 

[LJS]

5 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

In a similar vein, I found this rather lovely twitter account. Reminds me of some stuff someone on here has been ranting about endlessly . just can't quite remember who...

 

[pink_triangle]

She will have to give some more specifics about where the space is. My girlfriend grew up near Thurso and her mum still lives there. There's some beautiful beaches around there, but any more than one week would drive me crazy, that's the place and the in laws! 

[LJS]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

She will have to give some more specifics about where the space is. My girlfriend grew up near Thurso and her mum still lives there. There's some beautiful beaches around there, but any more than one week would drive me crazy, that's the place and the in laws! 

Yeah I guess Thurso wouldn't be Everyone's cup of tea. Plenty of space there but precious few jobs, I'd think.

I'd see you fitting in in Edinburgh although Glasgow his better but a bit too socialist for you!

We have some odd place names. I used to live in Shetland a few miles from the village of Twat. I'm sure someone on here would fit in their...just can't think who.

 

 

[pink_triangle]

24 minutes ago, LJS said:

Yeah I guess Thurso wouldn't be Everyone's cup of tea. Plenty of space there but precious few jobs, I'd think.

I'd see you fitting in in Edinburgh although Glasgow his better but a bit too socialist for you!

We have some odd place names. I used to live in Shetland a few miles from the village of Twat. I'm sure someone on here would fit in their...just can't think who.

 

 

It's a lovely area of the country but it freaks me out a little how everyone knows everyone. I remember during my last visit a ladies daughter had gone to London for her 21st birthday and it was the talk of the town. I was also surprised how many of my girlfriends friends had hardly left the Highlands and many had never crossed the border into evil England! 

It would also drive me crazy knowing the nearest decent shopping centre is, 2 hours away. A cinema visit  is a day trip! Don't get me wrong my girlfriend loved growing up there, but is way too used to the convenience of having facilities on the doorstep to go back. 

[LJS]

53 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

It's a lovely area of the country but it freaks me out a little how everyone knows everyone. I remember during my last visit a ladies daughter had gone to London for her 21st birthday and it was the talk of the town. I was also surprised how many of my girlfriends friends had hardly left the Highlands and many had never crossed the border into evil England! 

It would also drive me crazy knowing the nearest decent shopping centre is, 2 hours away. A cinema visit  is a day trip! Don't get me wrong my girlfriend loved growing up there, but is way too used to the convenience of having facilities on the doorstep to go back. 

I know we are heading way off topic here (but apparently that's ok on  here)  I've lived in both extremes -Glasgow & Shetland.and I am sop please that my kids have experienced both - the world is full of country folk wanting to escape to the big city & City folk thinking life in the country is just idyllic. 

My favourite story about life in Shetland concerns my ex-wife who ran training for the Social work department. She organised a course & a chap cam up from Aberdeen to deliver training for home helps who were, stereotypically middle aged women - who had lived all their lives in Shetland. The chap who delivered the training thought that he was a bit more sophisticated than them because he lived in  the modern metropolis of Aberdeen. He apparently boasted to them that, living in Aberdeen, with 24/7 supermarkets, he could go shopping at 2am. Apparently the old women just looked at him & said, "why would you want to do your shopping at  2 am?