The Dirty Independence Question

[pink_triangle]

32 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

As I've said elsewhere, we are not voting for an SNP government - we are voting to give our government total control over all taxing & spending. I've never pretended Independence is guaranteed to make Scotland better, I am pretty confident that staying in the UK is close to being guaranteed NOT to make things better in Scotland or most of the UK outwith the Home Counties..

But, ultimately it is absolutely not about the short term. 

I think all evidence suggests that holding power is very attractive to all politicians. I believe we have had conversations in the past about the balance between principle and the pursuit of power.

It's very much about the short term if you are one of the vulnerable who is shafted because the Snp don't want to upset the people who will vote for them in the next election. I'm not for one second suggesting the Snp politicians are different, my opinion is they are just the same. 

[LJS]

1 minute ago, pink_triangle said:

I want the british government and opposition to focus on getting the best brexit deal,

And how confident are you about this?

1 minute ago, pink_triangle said:

I feel a referendum would be a distraction.

Sorry, I don't feel your distraction is a reason to deny the democratic will of the Scottish people.

1 minute ago, pink_triangle said:

I believe that this view would be held by the majority of the UK which Scotland still belong.

Frankly, I don't care. This is no more relevant than what the majority of the EU would have thought about the UK Eu referendum. The problem here is that the UKgov has trundled out all sorts of meaningless platitudes about how we are all equal partners in a union of nations but have turned a deaf ear to the attempts of the Scottish Government to engage in constructive debate on trying to meet the democratically  expressed desire of the Scottish electorate to try & find a way to preserve some enhance level of access to European markets for Scotland. And now having ignored them completely, they are outraged when we say, "sorry guys, we've tried, you haven't even had the decency to talk to us, so we'll have a vote & we'll have it when we decide"

1 minute ago, pink_triangle said:

The Scottish voice should be heard, but it shouldn't trump the  voices of everyone else. 

So when would be fine for our referendum, 2 years? 4 years ? 8  years? 20 years? 100 years?

who decides? 

 

[LJS]

14 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

It's very much about the short term if you are one of the vulnerable who is shafted because the Snp don't want to upset the people who will vote for them in the next election.

I thoroughly agree. But the reality is that its hard to imagine either the Tories (UK) or the SNP (Scotland) losing power at their respective next elections. Although, at least in Scotland we have a realistic prospect of a minority government being nudge a bit in a "better" (in my view) direction.

14 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I'm not for one second suggesting the Snp politicians are different, my opinion is they are just the same. 

As previously stated, i broadly agree with this.

[pink_triangle]

33 minutes ago, LJS said:

And how confident are you about this?

 

More confident than of Corbyn/mcdonnell were negotiating, less confident if Keir Starmer was negotiating. Whether they get the best deal or not, I feel a referendum distracts and makes a good deal less likely. 

 

 

Quote

Sorry, I don't feel your distraction is a reason to deny the democratic will of the Scottish people.

 

The democratic will of Scottish people was heard in 2014., I'm happy for the British government to push this back. 

 

34 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

Frankly, I don't care. This is no more relevant than what the majority of the EU would have thought about the UK Eu referendum. 

 

I think it's completely different  I don't believe the Eu put significant resources into the Eu referendum. 

 

36 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

So when would be fine for our referendum, 2 years? 4 years ? 8  years? 20 years? 100 years?

who decides? 

 

The decision is for the British government  but I would hope there would be some negotiation with the Snp. To me 4 years sounds about right. We should also not forget that Sturgeon made this request knowing May would turn it down. She is playing politics, so May should not be afraid to play politics as well. 

[LJS]

5 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

 

 

 

The democratic will of Scottish people was heard in 2014.,

in 20104 we voted to remain in a UK that no longer exists

5 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

. 

I'm happy for the British government to push this back. 

I'm not

5 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

 

The decision is for the British government

Legally, you are correct

5 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

 but I would hope there would be some negotiation with the Snp.

But you are happy that, up to now, the UK hasn't bothered their arse to respond to the scottish governments proposals.

5 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

To me 4 years sounds about right.

Ah right we voted to stay  but we are not allowed a vote until our vote to stay has been well and truly scuppered and we are firmly out.

5 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

We should also not forget that Sturgeon made this request knowing May would turn it down.

You have a source for this? Opinions I rad were very much divided.

5 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

She is playing politics, so May should not be afraid to play politics as well. 

How dare she play politics? I predict that by playing politics Theresa May has sealed the fate of the UK.

[pink_triangle]

57 minutes ago, LJS said:

in 20104 we voted to remain in a UK that no longer exist

The only certainty is that the UK will continue to change. If Scotland votes remain again the Snp will look to exploit any changes for political gain. 

 

59 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

I'm not

In which case May can only keep one of us happy and disappoint the other. 

 

1 hour ago, LJS said:

 

Ah right we voted to stay  but we are not allowed a vote until our vote to stay has been well and truly scuppered and we are firmly out.

There was no "Scotland" vote, it was a UK wide vote where everyone vote counted equally. If in an independence regime a region votes no, but the country yes, the region is bound to follow the majority. 

 

1 hour ago, LJS said:

 

You have a source for this? Opinions I rad were very much divided.

 

Sturgeon is not stupid, she has made a political calculation. 

[eastynh]

6 hours ago, LJS said:

And how confident are you about this?

Sorry, I don't feel your distraction is a reason to deny the democratic will of the Scottish people.

Frankly, I don't care. This is no more relevant than what the majority of the EU would have thought about the UK Eu referendum. The problem here is that the UKgov has trundled out all sorts of meaningless platitudes about how we are all equal partners in a union of nations but have turned a deaf ear to the attempts of the Scottish Government to engage in constructive debate on trying to meet the democratically  expressed desire of the Scottish electorate to try & find a way to preserve some enhance level of access to European markets for Scotland. And now having ignored them completely, they are outraged when we say, "sorry guys, we've tried, you haven't even had the decency to talk to us, so we'll have a vote & we'll have it when we decide"

So when would be fine for our referendum, 2 years? 4 years ? 8  years? 20 years? 100 years?

who decides? 

 

The Scottish people had a democratic vote not long ago and they decided to stay part of the union. Unfortunately we now have a bigger issue affecting the union which needs to be resolved before you can have another vote.

[russycarps]

5 hours ago, LJS said:

in 20104 we voted to remain in a UK that no longer exists

 

Nothing has changed yet, and nothing will change until 2019 at the earliest.

Until then, that UK absolutely exists.

There is still a chance we won't leave at all. It would be ludicrous to hold a referendum before anything has actually happened

Edited March 17, 2017 by russycarps

[lost]

telegraph saying 6 years with the SNP having to campaign for the scottish 2021 elections on the basis of having a second referendum:

Theresa May tells Nicola Sturgeon: No new Scottish independence referendum for six years

Pretty clever if true. Basically a referendum on the referendum which 60% of Scots are saying they do not want currently. No majority for the SNP  in 2016 and it may tip the scottish parliament towards one of the other parties if they have to campaign on that issue.

Edited March 17, 2017 by lost

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Ruth Davidson just said the same Country line on the news.

I think they both think Scotland is a Country.

Salmond said it to claim that Scots had greater rights than other people of the UK.

"a country not a county" (or similar).

Go on, tell me what's civic in that.

Go on, tell me how Scotland's tribal past makes Scorts more important than someone who lives in a county.

 

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

Here's what he said...

 

 

Neil always mentions Sweden because (I think) like Britain they have some sort of formal opt-out. Funnily enough, he never mentions the other countries listed. 

Why quote from someone's blog and not from the EU themselves....?

Sweden doesn't have an opt out, but it does have different membership rules than countries after 1999.

The rules changed in 1999 to make a commitment to joining the Euro obligatory, with 'help' from the EU to help new member countries achieve that obligation.

I'm sure that committed Europeans like Scotland will sound proud as they say "We're good Europeans and intend to join the Euro [but we won't really Merkel, we're lying to you, ner ner ner]", and the properly commited other members will be hugely impressed as Scotland's dedication to the EU project.

 

9 hours ago, LJS said:

I have to say, personally, I have no massive principled opposition to joining the Euro but I'd accpet its probably not a great vote-winner at present.

Yep. And it loses those votes if/when Scotland indicates its commitment to being an EU member and so its commitment to joining the Euro.

 

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

I am quite sure if after we gain our hard won independence, a pro-Brejoin party won an election with a clear mandate to hold a referendum on rejoining the UK , there would be nothing to stop them doing just that. Its how democracy works.

Yep, just as the democracy of rUK will keep on laughing at the movement you'd just joined up to save your salary.

 

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

I made a wee amendment for you.

They've not joined the Euro but they have committed to join the Euro.

Like Scotland would have to do.

Are you really saying that Scotland intends to lie with its EU application, and to be openly saying to the EU it was going to take the piss with it's membership?

Don't you think the EU might take exception to that, and say it only wants committed members?

Particularly when it's just lost a member who was skeptical about membership terms including the one Scotland would be rejecting and is at the very heart of the EU project?

The funniest thing here is that you're thinking there's nothing wrong with iScotland starting life as liars on a grand scale.

Edited March 17, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

I think you may be slightly mis-quoting her 

Nope.

 

 

9 hours ago, LJS said:

Anyway..

Have you been following the spat between your mate Kevin & Richard Murphy about the reliability of GERS figures?

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/03/16/on-scotland-data-data-denial-and-gers/

http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/richard-murphy-gers-denier.html

If I liked popcorn...

 

Yep. Kev nails the twat who reckons GERS can be dismissed as not relevant for an independent scotland (and who sounds just like you about it, too).

Scotland's deficit only changes if spending is cut or revenues are increased by higher taxes. Either way is a much-poorer you and Scotland.

 

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

So the issue is not "has she the legal right?" - it is "has she the moral right"  and "is she politically right?"

May certainly has the moral right.... unless you think that Sturgeon has no moral right to stop (say) Edinburgh holding it's own separate vote to decide it didn't want to be part of an independent Scotland. Next?

Is she politically right? 2 days ago I'd have said no, this morning I'm much less sure. The only comeback Sturgeon seems to have is that May is scared - which is funny as fuck given that Sturgeon has spent the last 9 months running scared from her own threat of doing what May has just said she can't.

And Sturgeon is claiming a principle of democracy, too, when all democratic indicators say it's Sturgeon who is not accepting what the people want.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eastynh said:

The Scottish people had a democratic vote not long ago and they decided to stay part of the union. Unfortunately we now have a bigger issue affecting the union which needs to be resolved before you can have another vote.

Maybe Theresa should have thought of that before treating the Scottish government's attempts to reach a compromise with utter contempt. I appreciate it's all a bit inconvenient for a Tory government hell-bent on a hard brexit that no one voted for. I suspect Theresa will be very disappointed if she thinks "not now" is the end of it.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

62-38 for remain

SNP voted in on mandate to hold referendum 

Holyrood will vote for this next week.

What is the moral right against?

It's inconvenient for the Tories?

That's no moral right.

1. fewer people voted for remain than voted in support of the losing indy vote.

2. the last vote was allowed on certain 'binding' criteria which the SNP accepted at the time but now say doesn't count. What's moral about the SNP's take?

3. that binding criteria says there shouldn't be a vote now. What's moral about the SNP's take?

4. that binding criteria also only allowed a vote over a clear choice, and not the undecided that Sturgeon now wants to vote on. What's moral about the SNP's take?

5. the 2016 SG elections were not a one issue vote, that was only about a 2nd indyref. What's moral about the SNP's take?

6. Sturgeon had previously said - many many times - that the people of scotland would decide when the next one was, and it's clear their decision right now is 'not now'. What's moral about the SNP's take?

7. Sturgeon is now immorally claiming - because it makes her previous words a lie - that it's her decision or an SG decision and the people don't matter a fuck. What's moral about the SNP's take?

8. the last vote made clear that Scotland agreed to be part of whole-UK decisions, meaning there was no 62% remain vote. What's moral about the SNP's take?

9. Sturgeon is claiming not allowing a vote would take Scotland out of the EU and that's mean and nasty and not permissible when Sturgeon herself put forwards a plan that would take Scotland out of the EU - and is quite likely a lesser 'single market' plan than the UK will end up with. What's moral about the SNP's take?

10. no one is saying Scotland can't have another ref, only that one during brexit isn't appropriate because the choice being made wouldn't be clear. 

[LJS]

6 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

The only certainty is that the UK will continue to change. If Scotland votes remain again the Snp will look to exploit any changes for political gain. 

As would any government in Holyrood.

6 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

 

In which case May can only keep one of us happy and disappoint the other. 

I have no expectations of May making me happy. Do you?

6 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

 

There was no "Scotland" vote, it was a UK wide vote where everyone vote counted equally. If in an independence regime a region votes no, but the country yes, the region is bound to follow the majority. 

And there was a Scottish election where we the people of Scotland gave the SNP a mandate to hold a referendum.

6 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

Sturgeon is not stupid, she has made a political calculation. 

Sturgeon is a politician.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

I'm sure it is inconvenient for the Tories.

Its nice that you are so concerned for them.

It's inconvenient for 60M people who don't want somreone being a self-serving c**t at their expense.

But hey, Scots are more important than other people, so what Scots want Scots should get and others have to pay the price.

I'm loving the more carey-sharey love ypou're giving, and how attached you are to equality. You might as well be farage saying darkies have lesser rights.

But you're nothing like Farage, of course. You believe in equality, as long as Scots come first.

Putting Scotland first, making Scotland great again, stronger for Scotland.

And fuck everyone else.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, russycarps said:

Nothing has changed yet, and nothing will change until 2019 at the earliest.

Until then, that UK absolutely exists.

There is still a chance we won't leave at all. It would be ludicrous to hold a referendum before anything has actually happened

It is clear that we will know what brexit looks like before the proposed referendum dates. It is ludicrous to say you can't have a vote until we have already dragged you out of the EU.

[pink_triangle]

LJS flip this away from a position of self interest. If you were in Mays position what would you do? 

[LJS]

1 hour ago, lost said:

telegraph saying 6 years with the SNP having to campaign for the scottish 2021 elections on the basis of having a second referendum:

Theresa May tells Nicola Sturgeon: No new Scottish independence referendum for six years

Pretty clever if true. Basically a referendum on the referendum which 60% of Scots are saying they do not want currently. No majority for the SNP  in 2016 and it may tip the scottish parliament towards one of the other parties if they have to campaign on that issue.

Meanwhile Scot gov calls a general election with SNP & greens standing on a clear independence mandate. If they win, no referendum required.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

I find it inconvenient that I have to wait until we have been removed from the EU before we can decide which of the 2 unions we would lie to remain in. I suspect all the EU citizens in Scotland would find that a bit inconvenient too.

they'd have been less chance of being removed from the EU is your FM hadn't twiddled her thumbs for nine months, but you seem to be giving her a free pass about that.

And they'd be less chance of being removed from the EU is your FM wasn't planning on waiting another 18 months before deciding to vote, which guarntees scotland could not be indy before it's out of the EU, but you seem to be giving her a free pass about your own FM being the one to make the choice that you're 100% definitely out of the EU.

Cos if you care to notice, your own FM still hasn't even asked for a vote for it to be refused - and it's her own lack of action which guarantees Scotland is taken outf o the EU.

[LJS]

46 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Salmond said it to claim that Scots had greater rights than other people of the UK.

"a country not a county" (or similar).

Go on, tell me what's civic in that.

Go on, tell me how Scotland's tribal past makes Scorts more important than someone who lives in a county.

 

Get your lies in early, Neil.

Assertion unsupported by anything at all.

[LJS]

41 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Why quote from someone's blog and not from the EU themselves....?

Sweden doesn't have an opt out, but it does have different membership rules than countries after 1999.

The rules changed in 1999 to make a commitment to joining the Euro obligatory, with 'help' from the EU to help new member countries achieve that obligation.

I'm sure that committed Europeans like Scotland will sound proud as they say "We're good Europeans and intend to join the Euro [but we won't really Merkel, we're lying to you, ner ner ner]", and the properly commited other members will be hugely impressed as Scotland's dedication to the EU project.

 

Yep. And it loses those votes if/when Scotland indicates its commitment to being an EU member and so its commitment to joining the Euro.

 

Still banging on about Sweden. What about the other countries I listed?