The Dirty Independence Question

[Comfy Bean]

Mentioning just-one instance of good budgeting as tho that somehow validates indy is also a wee bit desperate. If there was desperation in the reply, it indy desperation that got us there.

In an indy debate, if something is held up as a means of justification, it needs to be properly and fully justified.

But anyway. My kid properly managed his pocket money budget last week, so I reckon it's time for him to strike out on his own.

As above, my mentioning an instance of good budgeting was never meant to somehow justify indy. Apologies if it came across that way. Was never my intention.

That`s good news on your lad. Perhaps you could take the money back off him, apply some complicated formula ( cream some cash off for yourself ) and give him back less money than he started with

Edited November 10, 2014 by comfortablynumb1910

[kaosmark2]

This ideology upsets me. "It's Scottish money so should benefit Scots" "It's London money so should benefit Londoners".

I don't have the idea that money that I pay in tax should be used to benefit me, or my family, or my city. Public coffers should be used to benefit society, which does involve redistribution. The idea that not returning wealth directly to where it's sourced from is bad is a ridiculous idea. So ridiculous it goes beyond Tory, and possibly even beyond those nutters in the "Taxpayers Alliance". If you fund projects back where the funding comes from you just exaggerate the already excessive inequality between regions.

And, ftr, this is also why Britain shouldn't be whining about the EU payment. We signed up to these rules and were happy to follow them when getting rebates, and now we're complaining because they don't directly favour us right now. Ridiculous.

[eFestivals]

That`s good news on your lad. Perhaps you could take the money back off him, apply some complicated formula ( cream some cash off for yourself ) and give him back less money than he started with

That would make him like London.

To make him like Scotland, I need to be giving him ten percent extra, without him contributing 10% extra, and mostly with him contributing 10% less.

Whoops!

[Comfy Bean]

Whether you "loose out" or not depends what criteria you're using for the losing.

London earns more than gets spent on London. No other part of the UK can say the same, or gets close to the same.

A reminder: Scotland spends over 10% more than it contributes (with the geographic share of oil included, and those London projects excluded).

So, does Scotland really lose out? Or is it being generously supported?

Agreed.

You never gave us an indication on who you would like to see in Westminster next year if we have a face off between Salmond and Danny Alexander ? I`m still hoping we could see efest united behind Salmond.

[kaosmark2]

if we have a face off between Salmond and Danny Alexander ?

Option C.

[russycarps]

This ideology upsets me. "It's Scottish money so should benefit Scots" "It's London money so should benefit Londoners".

I don't have the idea that money that I pay in tax should be used to benefit me, or my family, or my city. Public coffers should be used to benefit society, which does involve redistribution. The idea that not returning wealth directly to where it's sourced from is bad is a ridiculous idea. So ridiculous it goes beyond Tory, and possibly even beyond those nutters in the "Taxpayers Alliance". If you fund projects back where the funding comes from you just exaggerate the already excessive inequality between regions.

And, ftr, this is also why Britain shouldn't be whining about the EU payment. We signed up to these rules and were happy to follow them when getting rebates, and now we're complaining because they don't directly favour us right now. Ridiculous.

I agree entirely. Thankfully it's only scotland that thinks otherwise.

As you say, there is no appetite at all down here for london to go it alone, and this is the capital of greed.

Scots more selfish than even the tories? surely not...

[eFestivals]

This ideology upsets me. "It's Scottish money so should benefit Scots" "It's London money so should benefit Londoners".

Yep. It's as Thatcherite as it gets. "It's all mine, just mine" ... or "me me me and fuck everyone else".

That London consideration is something that's been triggered by Scottish doings. No one was much thinking about it, until Scotland started making claims for itself causing others to consider how their own position might be.

But hey, just think how rich the Shetlands would be if they threw off Scotland.

Or how rich some parts of Scotland might be if they threw off Glasgow.

I don't have the idea that money that I pay in tax should be used to benefit me, or my family, or my city. Public coffers should be used to benefit society, which does involve redistribution. The idea that not returning wealth directly to where it's sourced from is bad is a ridiculous idea. So ridiculous it goes beyond Tory, and possibly even beyond those nutters in the "Taxpayers Alliance". If you fund projects back where the funding comes from you just exaggerate the already excessive inequality between regions.

And, ftr, this is also why Britain shouldn't be whining about the EU payment. We signed up to these rules and were happy to follow them when getting rebates, and now we're complaining because they don't directly favour us right now. Ridiculous.

Beautifully put, for both the UK and the EU.

One of things I find so very funny about these new Scottish nationalists is their demand that if they're not having indy which they believe will make them gloriously rich then the Barnet formula is sacrosanct to ensure they don't have to live by their own wits but on the backs of others. It's no wonder that the Labour Party are no longer socialists to those people if that's the new definition of socialist they're working from.

[Comfy Bean]

That would make him like London.

To make him like Scotland, I need to be giving him ten percent extra, without him contributing 10% extra, and mostly with him contributing 10% less.

Whoops!

But what if he wants an expensive new train set so that he can get into town a few minutes quicker than the other kids....who`s paying for that ? Or is that coming out of his pocket money. Perhaps he could give the contract to one of his mates and gets some extra dosh that way

Anyway this is getting silly now. We all know all the kids get much more than 10% in every deal.

[eFestivals]

Agreed.

You never gave us an indication on who you would like to see in Westminster next year if we have a face off between Salmond and Danny Alexander ? I`m still hoping we could see efest united behind Salmond.

I'd rather have the one that's less keen on a tory govt.

So that rules Salmond out. Oh dear.

[Comfy Bean]

This ideology upsets me. "It's Scottish money so should benefit Scots" "It's London money so should benefit Londoners".

I don't have the idea that money that I pay in tax should be used to benefit me, or my family, or my city. Public coffers should be used to benefit society, which does involve redistribution. The idea that not returning wealth directly to where it's sourced from is bad is a ridiculous idea. So ridiculous it goes beyond Tory, and possibly even beyond those nutters in the "Taxpayers Alliance". If you fund projects back where the funding comes from you just exaggerate the already excessive inequality between regions.

And, ftr, this is also why Britain shouldn't be whining about the EU payment. We signed up to these rules and were happy to follow them when getting rebates, and now we're complaining because they don't directly favour us right now. Ridiculous.

Good post mate but I don`t think anyone on either side is saying that the " tax I pay should be used to benefit me or my family or my city ". In the last couple of pages I`ve been responding to the idea that London props up Scotland. I recognise the massive contribution London makes and was only trying to provide a bit of balance to what was being said, hence my examples of how the rest of the UK ( or in this thread and my examples - Scotland ) also contribute to the massive costs of Londons infrastructure ).

Your bang on with what your saying about the EU. Couldn`t agree more.

[eFestivals]

[eFestivals]

[Comfy Bean]

I agree entirely. Thankfully it's only scotland that thinks otherwise.

As you say, there is no appetite at all down here for london to go it alone, and this is the capital of greed.

Scots more selfish than even the tories? surely not...

Eh ?

I thought we would be much worse off with Indy ? Now you`ve got us back as selfish and greedy.

You can`t have it both ways......

Who would you back Russy if we have Salmond v Alexander ?

[kaosmark2]

Good post mate but I don`t think anyone on either side is saying that the " tax I pay should be used to benefit me or my family or my city ". In the last couple of pages I`ve been responding to the idea that London props up Scotland. I recognise the massive contribution London makes and was only trying to provide a bit of balance to what was being said, hence my examples of how the rest of the UK ( or in this thread and my examples - Scotland ) also contribute to the massive costs of Londons infrastructure ).

Your bang on with what your saying about the EU. Couldn`t agree more.

But the case for independence is the idea that Scotland and rUK should be separate nations, with separate taxation, separate spend, and generally separate societies. It says each should support themselves and not integrate and balance between for the overall good.

I realise posters in this thread haven't gone as extreme as Salmond with pushing the "Scots will be better off" agenda, but it's still an idea that is at the core of independence.

[kaosmark2]

Eh ?

I thought we would be much worse off with Indy ? Now you`ve got us back as selfish and greedy.

You can`t have it both ways.....

Actually, if you're following a lie that you'll be better off, and making a decision for selfish purposes, that still leaves you worse off, you can have it both ways.

Ideologically selfish and in reality screwed is quite possible. Just ask Alex.

[eFestivals]

Good post mate but I don`t think anyone on either side is saying that the " tax I pay should be used to benefit me or my family or my city ". In the last couple of pages I`ve been responding to the idea that London props up Scotland. I recognise the massive contribution London makes and was only trying to provide a bit of balance to what was being said, hence my examples of how the rest of the UK ( or in this thread and my examples - Scotland ) also contribute to the massive costs of Londons infrastructure ).

Your bang on with what your saying about the EU. Couldn`t agree more.

Look, Scotland is the lower contributors to the UK pot right now, and it doesn't matter how much you bitch about something you're not paying for when the current facts can make a straight-thinking intelligent nationalist go white with fear.

The London thing got thrown back at you because you like to pretend you're paying for something that you're not.

The indyref got thrown at the UK because Scotland likes to believe that England is riding on it's back.

I've lost count of the number of times I've heard from Nats that the UK is irretrievably fucked, closely followed by a whine about "it's oor pound". None of those Nats ever cotton on.

[LJS]

I agree entirely. Thankfully it's only scotland that thinks otherwise.

As you say, there is no appetite at all down here for london to go it alone, and this is the capital of greed.

Scots more selfish than even the tories? surely not...

I agree too. Wealth should be distributed within our country so that money is spent where it is most needed.

I just happen to want 'our country" to be Scotland.

On the one hand all ye naysayers say Scotland will be worse off under independence whilst on the other hand accusing us of greed & selfishness.

Can't be both.

[Comfy Bean]

Option C.

Lets just say there is no Option C.

You`ve got the Chief Secretary to the Treasury of the current Tory led Coalition who`s party have been in bed with the Tories throughout this govt ( and will shortly suffer at the polls for it ) against a guy held in high regard throughout the land.

Who do you think would bring the most to Westminster next year ? Serious question ( apart from the high regard bit ).

[Comfy Bean]

Nah, not always. How much good did the Murdoch grovelling and lies about dinner at YOUR expense do your mate Alex? Uncle Rupe only backs winners, and your old man is a loser.

You`ve lost me here mate. My point was only that all our kids take us for much more than 10% of their pocket money. Anywayz, do you still think that Sky and the Sun were supporters of Scottish Independence ?

[eFestivals]

Eh ?

I thought we would be much worse off with Indy ? Now you`ve got us back as selfish and greedy.

You can`t have it both ways......

Who would you back Russy if we have Salmond v Alexander ?

It's without doubt that you'd be worse off under indy in the short term. Even Alex admitted to that one (tho not the true extent).

Meanwhile, the campaign was all about the riches you'd all have, that jam that would fall from the sky.

"It's oor oil".

"It's oor pound"

"It's oor Barnet formula money"

"It's oor right for the Scottish middle classes to have freebies at the expense of the UK's poor".

There's a lot around that to joke about, but in the end it's just desperately sad.

[eFestivals]

On the one hand all ye naysayers say Scotland will be worse off under independence whilst on the other hand accusing us of greed & selfishness.

Can't be both.

It's the yes-ers narrative.

Yes-ers say that Scotland is robbed by England.

Yes-ers say that Scotland will be better off indy, when it's not robbed by England.

Yes-ers say what wonderful things will be done for the poor in iScotland with that extra money - while doing less for the poor of Scotland with the extra money Scotland has already.

Just because yes-ers loose their mathematics skills doesn't mean that those who do not are inconsistent.

[Comfy Bean]

I'd rather have the one that's less keen on a tory govt.

So that rules Salmond out. Oh dear.

I`m sure we have covered this already but due to the good work done by Salmond and his party over the years Scotland will send few, if any, Tory MP`s into the Westminster pot. How`s that working out round your way ? To be clear I`m not blaming any of you guys for a tory govt ( well apart from the Gary fella ) but it is a bit perverse for you to keep banging on that a Tory Government getting shit loads of votes from the middle englanders is in some way our fault.

[eFestivals]

Who do you think would bring the most to Westminster next year ? Serious question ( apart from the high regard bit ).

the one who is prepared to contribute to govt for the good of all UK citizens, and not just his own direct agenda.

The one who wants a tory govt less than the other.

[LJS]

It's without doubt that you'd be worse off under indy in the short term. Even Alex admitted to that one (tho not the true extent).

Meanwhile, the campaign was all about the riches you'd all have, that jam that would fall from the sky.

"It's oor oil".

"It's oor pound"

"It's oor Barnet formula money"

"It's oor right for the Scottish middle classes to have freebies at the expense of the UK's poor".

There's a lot around that to joke about, but in the end it's just desperately sad.

The campaign was anything but about all the "riches" we would have. It's just convenient for you to portray it that way as that is easier to counter than the many other pro Indy points.

Incidentally, I am not claiming that the claim Scotland would gain financially played no part in the Yes campaign. You may recall that I was not a spokesman for the yes campaign & was quite prepared to criticize aspects of its tactics

Edited November 10, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

the one who is prepared to contribute to govt for the good of all UK citizens, and not just his own direct agenda.

The one who wants a tory govt less than the other.

That would be eck then I reckon.

Good call, Neil.