The Dirty Independence Question

[russycarps]

Sorry I forgot the special treatment thing, that's fine then.

The tableau in question wasn't even.allowed out on the roads by police last night and the chairman of one of the bonfire societies had police stationed outside his home after receiving death threats.

who has been on the tableau in the past?

[russycarps]

Having said all of that, there's issues around London to be dealt with. Don't go thinking that the facts given above is my endorsement for keeping things as they stand - it's simply the case that I don't reject the real facts because they're inconvenient to what I'd like to see happen.

this is the other frustrating thing about this thread. If you recognise facts, the Yes voters immediately think you condone and fully endorse whatever those facts are.

[atomised]

who has been on the tableau in the past?

Osama bin laden, David cameron, Barack Obama, rebekah brooks, the list goes on. Generally a political or public figure from a key news story of the year gone by.

Last night 2 of the different societies tableau were of aalmond. One still blew theres up.

Another blew up a tableau of Putin astride a Malaysian airlines plane holding a rocket launcher last night. Not seen any complaints from the Russians though

[eFestivals]

this is the other frustrating thing about this thread. If you recognise facts, the Yes voters immediately think you condone and fully endorse whatever those facts are.

In the world of social media, yes-ers see any inconvenient facts as 'bias'.

The angle they take means that the only acceptable position is full endorsement of what they strive for - which is exactly the reason why Labour are now so hated up there. They dared to disagree with the yes-ers.

[MichaelsBeard]

Just read this by Irvine Welsh - some interesting views. Not that I agree with a lot of it.

/rS3HvtXcTM

[eFestivals]

Just read this by Irvine Welsh - some interesting views. Not that I agree with a lot of it.

/rS3HvtXcTM

If independence is a series of small steps away from voting, where are the steps?

The simple fact is that Scotland could choose to be far more independent than it is, without need of any referendum.

An independent state is made up of its institutions, and Scotland is lacking most institutions of a sovereign state. Some of those institutions are 'reserved' via the current devolution process, but not all of them. So why aren't the separatists doing what's in their power to do?

Even with most of the 'reserved' institutions, it's still easily possible for Scotland to create them and for them to be used in all of the same ways while not having legal sovereignty. It's the use of them that gives them their real importance, not the granting of a right by Westminster.

Want the currency issue to go away, so it doesn't derail the next indyref in the same manner as it did in September? Create a Scottish currency, and with the huge support that is claimed for indie it's a certain winner. It gets you over half-way there for the currency issue, and there's fuck all that Westminster can do to stop that.

But instead they'll bitch and moan and stamp their feet and say it's not fair and democracy is being denied, while doing fuck all about actually changing what they have the power to change.

And that's because? Baaaaa!

Edited November 6, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Just read this by Irvine Welsh - some interesting views. Not that I agree with a lot of it.

/rS3HvtXcTM

I'm loving this bit....

"So general elections in Scotland are now no longer about whether the pink or blue version of Toryism manages neo-liberalism from Westminster"

True. It's about the blue neoliberal Scotland of the SNP.

Scotland currently has no answer to the same neoliberalism as exists all over Europe, and the indie campaign was about more of it and not less.

[russycarps]

£8.7bn over 3 years is the shortfall scotland would face with oil at $82 a barrel.

there was absolutely no plan B for this eventuality, of course.

The much lauded John Swinney's reputation is in tatters, along with the already discredited Salmond, after they repeatedly ridiculed the government's forecasts.

Edited November 6, 2014 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

£8.7bn over 3 years is the shortfall scotland would face with oil at $82 a barrel.

Where did you get that number from, and on what is it based?

[russycarps]

Where did you get that number from, and on what is it based?

todays financial times. Based on a three-year budget period from 2016-2018. £8.7bn in lost budget revenues.

(not sure if you need an account to read the article)

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/59831914-6514-11e4-91b1-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3IJ3hnlia

[eFestivals]

todays financial times. Based on a three-year budget period from 2016-2018. £8.7bn in lost budget revenues.

I doubt it would be that much.

Find out what the revenues were for 2013-14, and then times it by three. You'll spot the problem then with a claim of an £8.7Bn reduction.

[LJS]

Just read this by Irvine Welsh - some interesting views. Not that I agree with a lot of it.

/rS3HvtXcTM

Good analysis of the mess Labour in Scotland is in

[Comfy Bean]

And as an aside if they did withdraw the Alex aalmond tableau its a blow to the traditions of bonfire round these parts. The tableau have always been light hearted takes on news stories and it doesn't sit well having decades of tradition censored whatever the reason

Fair enough Salmond but Nessie !!! That`s the line crossed right there. Had a chuckle when I read about it last night and again today when Salmond trolled them straight back with comments about Tories not liking him and talking about how he and Guy Fawkes are trying to destroy Westminster

Was surprised they picked Salmond though........not sure he`s even Catholic

[Comfy Bean]

£8.7bn over 3 years is the shortfall scotland would face with oil at $82 a barrel.

there was absolutely no plan B for this eventuality, of course.

The much lauded John Swinney's reputation is in tatters, along with the already discredited Salmond, after they repeatedly ridiculed the government's forecasts.

Accuracy of these figures aside, it`s a fair point and something that does require to be addressed( I mean by the Scottish Govt ). We had all the links on here before about Scotlands other natural resources ( vast ) and I`m hoping that alot of Patrick Harvies ideas during the campaign will be worked on going forward.

Only other point I wanted to make was that of course IF.....we had voted YES we would still be a bit away from actually being in control of all revenues. The decline in revenue right now is not really good news for debt ridden UK.

[Comfy Bean]

If independence is a series of small steps away from voting, where are the steps?

The simple fact is that Scotland could choose to be far more independent than it is, without need of any referendum.

An independent state is made up of its institutions, and Scotland is lacking most institutions of a sovereign state. Some of those institutions are 'reserved' via the current devolution process, but not all of them. So why aren't the separatists doing what's in their power to do?

Even with most of the 'reserved' institutions, it's still easily possible for Scotland to create them and for them to be used in all of the same ways while not having legal sovereignty. It's the use of them that gives them their real importance, not the granting of a right by Westminster.

Want the currency issue to go away, so it doesn't derail the next indyref in the same manner as it did in September? Create a Scottish currency, and with the huge support that is claimed for indie it's a certain winner. It gets you over half-way there for the currency issue, and there's fuck all that Westminster can do to stop that.

But instead they'll bitch and moan and stamp their feet and say it's not fair and democracy is being denied, while doing fuck all about actually changing what they have the power to change.

And that's because? Baaaaa!

Neil, good post and some interesting points. There is a lot to learn from defeat. Whens the cut off though for the guff contained in the last 2 paragraphs ? Think that`s 7 weeks now since your victory

[Comfy Bean]

So you think Scotland could maintain its exact same level of social services etc without the income of London and with oil prices at $80 a barrel?

Ok

No I do not. Although I`m still not 100% convinced about your " income of London " bit. What I do think though is that Scotland will continue to maintain the same priorities with Health and Education ahead of Train sets and journey times

[Comfy Bean]

Your glorious leader says not a penny, and formalises that in GERS.

You see, even with the cost of these things excluded from the Scottish accounts, Scotland is still more financially fucked than the UK average.

Meanwhile, London is contributing more taxes than all of its expenditure INCLUDING those 'national' infrastructure projects - so much so, it still has surplus enough to send Scotland all of the extra it takes from the UK and to still have some left over (which Wales, NI, and the north are grateful for).

But don't let the facts get in the way of your argument, eh?

Having said all of that, there's issues around London to be dealt with. Don't go thinking that the facts given above is my endorsement for keeping things as they stand - it's simply the case that I don't reject the real facts because they're inconvenient to what I'd like to see happen.

Neil, your the numbers man. Can you shed some light on how much Scotland will contribute to these super duper trains and the new London sewerage system ?

Not convinced about this " not a penny ". I`m thinking that Westminster decided that both the sewerage system and the trains were of great benefit to Scotland

It`s either Billions or not a penny. Shall we have a vote ? I`m honestly not sure but am going with we ARE paying.

[Comfy Bean]

this is the other frustrating thing about this thread. If you recognise facts, the Yes voters immediately think you condone and fully endorse whatever those facts are.

What was the first thing Russy ? I`m going with people`s posts being mis-represented

Sometimes we disagree with other peoples " facts ". No need for you to get all frustrated

[Comfy Bean]

who has been on the tableau in the past?

Here you go mate :

[russycarps]

Here you go mate :

I actually couldnt point to lewes on a map now I think about it. But surely it cant be worse than places in essex??

[Comfy Bean]

There were a few Labour folk surprised that Jim Murphy dropped his role with Milliband to head up here and go for the leaders job. As I said at the time he has never shown a great interest in Hollyrood. Could he have known about the Milliband out rumours that were reported today ?

My guess has always been that Milliband would lose the next election. Fair enough we don`t all agree. This leads me to think that it could be good for Labour if he went now. Would him going at this stage help Labour win the election or would this make it less likely ?

Don`t think he will as who would replace him but there seems to be a bit of substance to the " story ".

[Comfy Bean]

I actually couldnt point to lewes on a map now I think about it. But surely it cant be worse than places in essex??

I`d never heard of it either mate but it looks a right laugh !!!

As I said earlier, I laughed at the Salmond thing and laughed at his response. All good fun I thought but there does seem to be a bit of an ......odd under current to what goes on down there and I don`t mean with Salmond.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-29915270

Edited November 6, 2014 by comfortablynumb1910

[russycarps]

I`d never heard of it either mate but it looks a right laugh !!!

As I said earlier, I laughed at the Salmond thing and laughed at his response. All good fun I thought but there does seem to be a bit of an ......odd under current to what goes on down there and I don`t mean with Salmond.

I googled it, it's by brighton. Funny really as brighton is a really cool place.

This lot are behaving like a some kind of weird wicker-man type cult. Bunch of backwards fuckwits.

I think it's very odd. Banning is not the answer, but what an unpleasant tradition. Parts of england are truly abhorrent.

Edited November 6, 2014 by russycarps

[Comfy Bean]

Just announced, an " under budget " story. While others burn his effigy he just keeps on delivering

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/glasgow-commonwealth-games-25m-under-budget-1-3596383

[Comfy Bean]

Just read this by Irvine Welsh - some interesting views. Not that I agree with a lot of it.

/rS3HvtXcTM

Good stuff MB. As you say, some interesting views even if you don`t agree with every word of it. Also made me think that Trainspotting must be the soundtrack to this thread. Think Neil started it but there have been a good few references not least this from Irvine Welsh. Braveheart with Mel G has had plenty of mentions as well but the least said about that the better. Good excuse to post this. I still shake my head along with spud near the end. Classic stuff.