The Dirty Independence Question

[russycarps]

Go punch yourself in the face!

You mean I should move to scotland and vote SNP??

General question - would PR make a vote for the SNP less of a punch in the face?

Similarly, is a vote for the Greens the same?

To the first part, yes.

To the second part, it depends where you are voting. I will vote Green probably, but only because my voting that way will not have any impact on possible Tory success.

If it was a close seat, then yes it's the same thing. Most (decent) peoples default setting is to vote whatever way is necessary to keep the tories out. They are loathesome.

If you are anything other than incredibly wealthy, then I question your sanity in being a tory. They hate you.

[kaosmark2]

If you are anything other than incredibly wealthy, then I question your sanity in being a tory. They hate you.

Are you:

An immigrant

Black

Female

Living in a city

Earning less than a 6 figure salary

Earning less than a 7 figure salary and don't have a rich family

Using the NHS as opposed to private healthcare

State-educated

Renting

Still paying off your mortgage

An attendee of any music event

Someone who has ever touched drugs

Someone who has ever drunk a bottle of wine costing less than £50

Aware of a semblance of British reality

The child of any of the above

If so, they hate you.

[russycarps]

Are you:

An immigrant

Black

Female

Living in a city

Earning less than a 6 figure salary

Earning less than a 7 figure salary and don't have a rich family

Using the NHS as opposed to private healthcare

State-educated

Renting

Still paying off your mortgage

An attendee of any music event

Someone who has ever touched drugs

Someone who has ever drunk a bottle of wine costing less than £50

Aware of a semblance of British reality

The child of any of the above

If so, they hate you.

flawless!

[gary1979666]

I could give reasons, but let's cut out several pages of character assasination and just say I'm greedy and selfish.

In terms of levels of wealth - I ain't a 3 foreign holidays a year type of person.

[eFestivals]

General question - would PR make a vote for the SNP less of a punch in the face?

Less so. We have FPTP for Westminster, and while I'd prefer it to be PR, it's not.

So PR ideas don't apply, and FPTP ideas do apply. And that means that the winner takes it all.

The fact that Scots have no interest in Westminster is shown by the fact that show no desire for reform of Westminster. Even if one of rthe Westminster parties has a policy that is near the top of Scotland's stated Westminster hates - such as the abolishion of the HoL - it's dismissed as meaningless, to instead say they'll be making a meaningless vote for the SNP.

Mind you, by their very purpose, the SNP will always be a Westminster irrelevance no matter what the voting system - at least until there's a fully federal UK (which I can't ever see happening). They have nothing to offer any other party apart from the destruction of any party that's foolish enough to get into bed with them.

Similarly, is a vote for the Greens the same?

In Scotland, yes it is - due to 'the West Lothian question' and the divisions that the indyref has created &/or exposed and which are now impacting into UK-wide politics.

It's a different racecourse in England, in big part because there's not any "national questions" to any of it, but also because of what any new Green MP's seat might be replacing.

For example, I live in their 3rd target seat (Bristol West) which is probably the best they're likely to get down their list of targets. It's currently LibDem but has recently been both Labour and tory, so as long as the seat doesn't go tory via a split vote it becomes a anti-Tory seat rather than having any negative impact onto Labour's chances of victory.

The issue in Scotland is the way that the polls are suggesting the changed voting to SNP up there will impact onto Labour's chances of victory. It might not be enough to stop Labour being the biggest party, tho it's likely to stop Labour being the majority party - which will allow the tories to exploit things for English nationalist purposes which will badly affect Scotland in both the short term and longer term.

It's all very well having an opinion of how you'd vote in an ideal world, but UK politics is not an ideal world. FPTP gets to mean that voting for the least-worst outcome is often a better thing to do than voting for a hoped-for ideal-world outcome.

[eFestivals]

Are you:

<snip>

I pity the homeless unemployed black Romanian disabled lesbians, they're top of the tory hate lists.

[russycarps]

I could give reasons, but let's cut out several pages of character assasination and just say I'm greedy and selfish.

In terms of levels of wealth - I ain't a 3 foreign holidays a year type of person.

haha your greed and selfish nature is actually costing you much more than it's saving you.

Are you also one of those working class people who vote tory because it makes you feel a bit posher and feel like it elevates you above your neighbours? It's a very common phenomenon.

[gary1979666]

haha your greed and selfish nature is actually costing you much more than it's saving you.

Are you also one of those working class people who vote tory because it makes you feel a bit posher and feel like it elevates you above your neighbours? It's a very common phenomenon.

I dunno if it actually is - I look to the likes of Labour and think what would be different if they'd been in power the last four and a half years. I don't think they have it in them to tackle any sort of reform - whether it economical, political, social, structural, etc. I think they would have had a similar stance to France when it comes to dealing with the ecomony. I believe that we should be focusing on private sector enterprise rather than bloating the public sector (though not saying get rid of it), I don't think rinsing the rich is the best way of generating income (in the profit x tax rate = income formula, I'd rather increase the first bit rather than the second). Business should be worked with, not against. I want to see a balanced budget and think the Tories have the best chance of achieving it (i.e. slim as opposed to none!) I don't think Gove's reforms were particularly bad (though his personal approach could have been a lot better. I think we need a welfare system to help those who need it, but it needs to be reformed to help people into work. Also, he may not be ideal figurehead of the UK, but I can't see the other party leaders doing any better on the world stage than Cameron.

I could go on, but, already know the above is going to be mauled. I don't agree with everything they do or say, but theyre the ones who most closely match my views. Rip it apart if you want / makes you feel better, but that's just my view. I'm not nasty, not racist, don't want to stamp on the poor, I just happen to vote tory at the moment. If another party inspires me, then my vote is up for grabs, but right no, there's nothing.

[kaosmark2]

I don't think Gove's reforms were particularly bad

Rip it apart if you want, but that's just my view.

Ah, you're stupid.

[eFestivals]

I dunno if it actually is - I look to the likes of Labour and think what would be different if they'd been in power the last four and a half years.

the rich would be paying back some of the trillion quid they'd recently stolen, instead of getting a free pass?

There's much the same going forwards, but more-so. Austerity for the poor to further enrichen the rich.

[lost]

If you are anything other than incredibly wealthy, then I question your sanity in being a tory. They hate you.

Thing is I voted labour in 97 against the backdrop of "things can only get better" at the time I was getting a completely free university education, house prices around here were about 3 times average incomes so friends who entered the unskilled jobs market had salaries which actually bought some sort of lifestyle. They could have a house, start a family and even if their job was shit before the beer duty escalator and smoking ban, still go out and let off a bit of steam. If we are talking about what a working class lifestyle is then I saw it decimated more between 97 and 2000 than anything the Tories have managed

[russycarps]

Thing is I voted labour in 97 against the backdrop of "things can only get better" at the time I was getting a completely free university education, house prices around here were about 3 times average incomes so friends who entered the unskilled jobs market had salaries which actually bought some sort of lifestyle. They could have a house, start a family and even if their job was shit before the beer duty escalator and smoking ban, still go out and let off a bit of steam. If we are talking about what a working class lifestyle is then I saw it decimated more between 97 and 2000 than anything the Tories have managed

Yep I did I did exactly the same.

I'm not sure you can say blair did more damage than the thatcher government but yes it was an utter betrayal, no one can deny that. The crushing disappointment still resonates today.

But this labour government, as utterly inept as it is, will still be a better option than this tory government for the working man. By a mile.

[eFestivals]

This is the crux of the matter.

The Yes voters are now so consumed by the independence dream that absolutely nothing else at all matters.

They are like a fanatical, self-flagellating cult. They actually want the pain the tories will bring, just to prove a point and to force another vote.

It's pathetic really, and extremely sad for the millions of people who will suffer.

I keep reading stuff from yes-ers which says "the no side denied democracy". Yeah, that'll be it, they denied democracy by allowing a democratic vote.

The basis of their argument seems to be that the major media lined up on the no side. In their warped world, all media should be split 50/50 to ensure no-bias, with nothing of the arguments from either side impinging into that - despite media being run by people who are entitled to an opinion.

The nuttiness actually goes further tho. Any time that the media laid out a case of why the yes claims were wrong, that was bias too. No thinking or consideration is allowed, unless it agrees with yes.

It seems that the faior world that yes-ers want is one where their own view is unchallenged but where aslso all claims by no are blown away as worthless.

Funny that, eh? The ones who complain about not getting their democratic rights insist that no one who disagrees has any of the same rights.

[kaosmark2]

Blair was a Thatcherite. While I think Ed is a bit of buffoon, he's setting out to distance himself from the "New Labour" Thatcherite policies. The 97-10 government did some good things along with a lot of bad as well. In the past 4 years I've seen a lot more bad.

[eFestivals]

In the past 4 years I've seen a lot more bad.

Exactly that, and the same for the future too.

Although the manifestos have yet to be published, both the tories and Labour have made some promises, and the tory future is a much more grim one unless you're part of the 1%.

But in Scotland being in the EU is the same as being out of the EU; greater cuts in public spending are the same as lesser cuts in public spending; etc, etc, etc.

Does Alex have some mind control techniques, and a big button saying "press here to switch off Scotland's brain"?

[lost]

Yep I did I did exactly the same.

I'm not sure you can say blair did more damage than the thatcher government but yes it was an utter betrayal, no one can deny that. The crushing disappointment still resonates today.

But this labour government, as utterly inept as it is, will still be a better option than this tory government for the working man. By a mile.

Well if you asked me if I'd rather be young again in 97 post thatcher and Major versus 2010 post Blair and Brown I know which my answer would be..

The present government is difficult to judge with the 11% deficit this parliament. If Labour had won and we'd have got Darling (who I actually liked and thought he did a good job despite clearly being set up as the fall guy for Brown) well I guess his plan would have given us similar to what we have now, the cuts only differed by about 0.5% the big difference was he was cutting more from the NHS and less from welfare.

If the coalition had collapsed early on and we'd got labour and Balls then I agree with Gary we could of ended up with the car crash that happened in France. Hollande has only admitted this year its a complete failure and sacked his entire cabinet replacing them with a more moderate one. The big problem now though is he's created a situation where the national front are polling as winning the next election, hopefully he'll turn it around in time and hopefully Balls has one eye over the channel.

[LJS]

Gosh, what fun you have all been having today displaying, as ever, how much your collective fingers are on the pulse of my wee nation.

A few points which you may all find helpful.

contrary to Neil's assertion, i was not "a labour voter" when I arrived in this thread. I was a "disillusioned" Labour voter. I still am. I want to vote Labour. I believe in everything they are supposed to believe in. I named my youngest son after one of their iconic figures. I have not deserted them. They have deserted me. If you had the patience to read back you would find all sorts of idealistic stuff from me about how, in an independent Scotland, the Scottish Labour Party, freed from the shackles of London could rediscover its soul. The way labour conducted itself in the indy campaign certainly didn't tempt me back but it is absolutely not why they have lost my vote.

The opinion poll figures suggest there is clearly a bigger issue for Labour than spiteful yes voters. the scale of their fall is such that they must have lost the support of a significant number of No voters too. They must have known that independence was a divisive issue in their party - why did they insist on making "no" an official Labour policy? They made it a "freedom of conscience" issue in 1979. There was no reason they couldn't have done so this year. But even more damaging was their decision to campaign shoulder to shoulder with the Tories. there was no reason for this. They could have conducted their own Labour against Indy campaign where they could have promoted social justice across the UK. You can't do that when you are standing beside George Osborne.

Neil consistently fails to address the arithmetical flaw in his argument. there is nothing to suggest that a minority government will survive for any significant time in our political system: so to form a government any party need either 50% +1 of the MP's in Westminster... or a coalition partner. The only viable coalition partner for the Tories would be Ukip so unless Scotland bizarrely starts electing Tory or Ukip mp's the only way there can be a workable Tory government is English voters electing Toekip MP's.

the media etc: I am sure there are people espousing all the batty ideas you guys are reporting here, but in a continuation of a constant theme, you are taking the views of some odd people on social media/newspaper comments & suggesting this is how all of us "Yessers" think. It's not.

Yes Neil a Labour government would in all likelihood be better than a Tory one - in the same way as having your leg amputated below the knee is better than having it all lopped off. And you are perfectly entitled to decide how you vote on that basis. I am perfectly entitled to decide how I vote on the basis of principle, I will not apologise for that.

And history shows, when lots of us vote for the SNP, Westminster gets scared & does nice things for Scotland.

And just for clarity, even though another tory government would probably further the Indy cause, i do not want a Tory government.. ever.

[Comfy Bean]

This is the crux of the matter.

The Yes voters are now so consumed by the independence dream that absolutely nothing else at all matters.

They are like a fanatical, self-flagellating cult. They actually want the pain the tories will bring, just to prove a point and to force another vote.

It's pathetic really, and extremely sad for the millions of people who will suffer.

If you don`t mind me saying Russy, this comes across as being quite arrogant and dismissive ( apologies if you meant it to sound like that ) of over a million people in Scotland who already find themselves living in " relative poverty ". When you consider that there are just over 5 million of us up here it`s pretty disgusting really. Have you ever thought for a minute that perhaps the " Independence dream " as you put it might have involved trying to do something about that ?

Saying that the people who thought Scotland should be an Independent country "actually want the pain the Tories will bring " ?????

You maybe want to think that through a bit more

[LJS]

Exactly that, and the same for the future too.

Although the manifestos have yet to be published, both the tories and Labour have made some promises, and the tory future is a much more grim one unless you're part of the 1%.

But in Scotland being in the EU is the same as being out of the EU; greater cuts in public spending are the same as lesser cuts in public spending; etc, etc, etc.

Does Alex have some mind control techniques, and a big button saying "press here to switch off Scotland's brain"?

I have absolutely no idea what you are on about

[Comfy Bean]

Yep. The bitterness among the Yes voters is so huge that nothing else matters. They want a tory government, they want the pain that will come with it. They want poor people to suffer as it makes good headlines and allows them to push the indy agenda.

What a lovely bunch.

Oh Dear !

You can`t have it both ways sir. Your all over the place today. From what your saying today, are you now agreeing that Scotland should have voted YES ?

You do realise that IF Scotland had voted YES then the " pain " of a Tory Govt would have been removed at a stroke for a long, long time. As we tried to say at the time, hopefully Scotland would have led the way and shown that a fairer society can be created by countries that don`t vote Tory. Some of these countries may have even followed our lead but it was Scotland who were having the Referendum.

If you were so concerned for " poor people suffering under a Tory Govt " why were you pushing for them to stay under a Tory Govt ? It honestly doesn`t make sense when you look at what youve been saying today. Labour, who are talking about being tougher on austerity than the Tories, couldn`t win a raffle. I posted a link the other day with some of Jim Murphys background. The Unions are not supporting him because of what he believes in. Dave is laughing as the chance to take a different path is gone. If / when he gets the English votes for Engerland through Labour are finished North and South.

Scotland had a chance to do something different. Don`t tell me you only wanted Scotland to stay part of the beloved Union as you were thinking that you could rely on us saving you from the Tories ? Pity you weren`t thinking of " the poor people " then.

If you did, Dave was laughing at you when he made his speech at 7am the morning after our vote. Sadly, as I`ve been saying, Ed will be no match for him over the coming months.

Are you really accusing 45% of Scottish voters of wanting a Tory Govt when a YES vote would have removed the Tories for a generation ? Really ?

Looks to me like you are now realising that YOU were the one encouraging people to vote to remain under Tory Rule. What have you done

#preyforrussy

[Comfy Bean]

Yep I did I did exactly the same.

I'm not sure you can say blair did more damage than the thatcher government but yes it was an utter betrayal, no one can deny that. The crushing disappointment still resonates today.

But this labour government, as utterly inept as it is, will still be a better option than this tory government for the working man. By a mile.

I agree with this mate but as you are starting to realise, an SNP Govt is a better option for our Country at the moment than either of them. Now you are starting to see the light there is a reason that throughout the whole Indy campaign, Better Together were unable to attack the SNP Govt over the way they went about the business of running the country. Most up here ( on both sides ) recognise it`s a pretty efficient machine they have put in place. They won by a margin of victory that few thought possible in the last Scottish elections and are well on track to repeat that despite losing the Indy ref ( see, i do realise YES lost ). Why do you think we are unlikely to get the powers to run things for ourselves instead of the crumbs off the table ? Imagine we make a go of it without making it all about austerity and cuts !

In the past, it would have been fair to accuse them of being a bit of a one trick pony who were only really interested in their " goal ". Most people in Scotland now realise that they have evolved although I accept that most of the good folks on efest are lagging a bit behind on this

[LJS]

here's an interesting bit of nonsense (?)

http://www.ukelect.co.uk/HTML/forecasts.html

Hmm... Labour largest party, SNp 3rd largest party holding balance of power. So a very specific example of how not voting labour in Scotland will not deliver a Tory government but will deliver a large number of SNP MP's with huge influence.

Interesting

[eFestivals]

contrary to Neil's assertion, i was not "a labour voter" when I arrived in this thread. I was a "disillusioned" Labour voter.

but you were still calling yourself a Labour voter, someone who would vote Labour. Nothing has changed with Labour since then. What has changed is you.

You're allowed to change, but a better motivation for a new path than being pissed off with the indy result would be good, and a bit of self-0realisation would be better still.

I'm also a pissed off Labour voter, but that doesn't mean that I'm daft enough to punch myself in the face.

The opinion poll figures suggest there is clearly a bigger issue for Labour than spiteful yes voters.

If only yes-ers applied the similar thinking to the indyref result, where they've convinced themselves that they only lost because the the other 55% were feart.

Neil consistently fails to address the arithmetical flaw in his argument. there is nothing to suggest that a minority government will survive for any significant time in our political system:

Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011

An act that was brought in precisely because they could see what was coming.

you are taking the views of some odd people on social media/newspaper comments & suggesting this is how all of us "Yessers" think. It's not.

According to you during the indyref, social media was where the truth was to be found. What's changed?

But your defensiveness here gives it away. You want to pretend that I'm only taking note of the nutters, when i'm not. I'm taking note of the broad body of opinion, and gauging the public's mood - *ALL* of them - rather than picking the convenient bits that suit my arguement.

Yes, I do point out some of the more-nutty comments - because there's an awful lot of them. Unlike you I don't try to pretend that's not a big part of all of it.

The best arguments from 'the disillusioned' - their only real arguments - is what they're not, not what they are. It's a fart in the wind that'll get lost as soon as the circumstances come about in which steps forward together have to be made rather than steps away from others.

Devo Max can't come soon enough, and to the greatest extent. The resulting 10% cut in Scottish public spending will soon have the fliers grounded.

Or is it that you won't give up the Barnet formula?

I will not apologise for that.

will you apologise for making yourself - and me - live under a tory govt, when you could have stopped what you say you don't want from happening?

We all have to take responsibility for the consequences of our own vote. It's only our own vote we have responsibility for and the ability to influence the outcome with.

And history shows, when lots of us vote for the SNP, Westminster gets scared & does nice things for Scotland.

at the expense of others.

But hey, most of us realised long ago that Scottish indy is driven by tory ideas - me me me and fuck everyone else - and not the great leap forwards that you lot spout.

And just for clarity, even though another tory government would probably further the Indy cause, i do not want a Tory government.. ever

so...

You want less devolution for Scotland.

You want a broken UK political process, where Scotland gets everything and rUK nothing.

You want Barnet but want to pretend you're not propped up by England.

It would be good if you could follow thru on all points, and not just some. Because that's the thing with politics in the real world, it's real and not imagined.

If many like you in Scotland ever face what's real, I'll get the popcorn in.

[eFestivals]

I have absolutely no idea what you are on about

You would if you actually listened to policy statements, rather than inventing false ones to keep up a false narrative.

You say Labour are the same as the tories, yet with those words of yours you've just proven that you don't have the first idea.

[eFestivals]

From what your saying today, are you now agreeing that Scotland should have voted YES ?

I dunno about russy, but me: yep.

I said about a year ago that I might end up thinking that, and so it's proven.

The final nail? When you lot started celebrating an independence poll that 6 weeks after you've voted no says you'd now vote yes - without a single thought that if you'd voted yes a poll now would say you'd now vote no.

There's nothing pragmatic and real world to Scottish political vision, there's only a mindless evidence-free belief that you can have it all and should have it all - and at everyone else's expense when you certainly couldn't do it on your own expense.

Scotland has the 3rd biggest deficit in Europe, but you can just spend spend spend.