Political equality @ Glasto...

[Northernsoul45]

so the snp change their principles to say they'd vote on a law that doesn't effect Scotland, a law which would in fact grant people in England and wales the same rights as people in Scotland currently have.and yet people (in England!) are falling over themselves to say how great the snp are?

 

great PR they have, they must be pissing themselves with laughter at how gullible some folk are.

[eFestivals]

Whilst the SNP are clearly focussed on Scotland (the clue is in the name), surely there are issues where the geographical location isn't relevant, that are about values that apply equally to a scot, or someone living in any other part of the UK. That's what her speech was about.  Sure, the party itself has a wider agenda, but that speech was about reaching out to the left in the Labour party to work together on left-wing issues.

so why have the SNP recently voted in support of corporate welfare when even the tories were against it?

The answer is: they're not left wing.

They want *everything* Scotland can get, and they'll switch position as suits them.

[frostypaw]

Too right, self-interest was never the way. I was looking at that thread last night and realised I didn't need a thread that long in my life.

Quite fair though, no point going over it again!

[DeanoL]

But nothing of that changes the fact that the SNP state very clearly that they believe that Scottish laws are best decided in Scotland by Scots, yet are taking an unprincipled stand where they also believe they have the (moral) right to not allow the same for others.

 

But they don't have that independence yet. I guess it's just a different outlook, but I don't see anything wrong with saying "I don't believe we should be allowed to vote on this law. But we are, so we're going to."

 

But I feel the same way with tax loopholes - the people making the laws should remove them, but if people take advantage in the meantime I don't think they're doing anything wrong.

 

Problem is if you start acting how you think the system should work, when that's not how the system actually works, you tend to end up getting screwed.

[eFestivals]

But they don't have that independence yet. I guess it's just a different outlook, but I don't see anything wrong with saying "I don't believe we should be allowed to vote on this law. But we are, so we're going to."

There's lots of potential arguments around this, but one stands clear of all the rest: they can't be claimed as a principled party.

So I really wish their supporters would stop with the pretence that they're somehow differewnt to the rest. They're just another bunch of self-serving politicians.

 

But I feel the same way with tax loopholes - the people making the laws should remove them, but if people take advantage in the meantime I don't think they're doing anything wrong.

There's no moral high ground to take by doing that.

 

Problem is if you start acting how you think the system should work, when that's not how the system actually works, you tend to end up getting screwed.

That might be true in a general sense, but try applying that to anything of what the SNP have decided to do with foxhunting. It can't be done!

Nothing of them deciding to vote or not on English foxhunting screws anything of Scotland.

It's merely about the SNP trying to screw England, or the UK constitution to attempt to make it unworkable.

And before anyone comes back with "but they have alternative ideas for a UK constitution", they don't. They merely say that's up to the UK to do, and attempt to absolve themselves from engagement in UK politics by doing so.

 

The only thing that's consistent about the line they take is that they're inconsistent, where that inconsistency is about undermining and nothing constructive.

Edited July 15, 2015 by eFestivals

[DeanoL]

That might be true in a general sense, but try applying that to anything of what the SNP have decided to do with foxhunting. It can't be done!

Nothing of them deciding to vote or not on English foxhunting screws anything of Scotland

I agree they're not as principled as some make out. It's also more awkward win them being almost the only party representing Scotland, if there were more than one Tory scot MP, the arguement that they're voting for it so they should even it out holds more weight.

But being that only party, they sort of have to demonstrate that they're willing to vote on English issues, else the issue is basically taken off the table- if the Tories know the SNP won't oppose them, there's no reason for them to waste time actually sorting out proper legislation to devolve powers - which is the nicer way of saying what you've been saying- they're stirring up trouble for their own benefit. But that they've picked something so utterly inconsequential but utterly Tory to have the fight over O's something I can approve of.

[eFestivals]

But being that only party, they sort of have to demonstrate that they're willing to vote on English issues, else the issue is basically taken off the table

 

Nicola Sturgeon, February 2015: "The SNP have a longstanding position of not voting on matters that purely affect England – such as fox-hunting south of the border, for example – and we stand by that"

[Rumblestripe]

I think that the SNP putting the boot in over Fox Hunting is simply opportunistic mischief making. Because they are a minority within the minority of the opposition, the votes where they are able to make "the news" will be very limited throughout this parliament. Labour have indicated they want nothing to do with them so basically on anything other than a "Free Vote" like the Fox Hunting bill their voices are of no more consequence than a fart in a sewer.

 

So, they saw the chance to cause some mischief and took it.

 

It is a kick in the nuts for the Conservatives as it shows that they cannot reliably use the device of a "Free Vote" to avoid splitting the party over divisive issues. It does highlight the "West Lothian Question" but I don't think that issue is one on which the Tories are comfortable (remember their full title is the "Conservative and Unioist Party") for Cameron to be the man who presided and perhaps initiated the break up of the UK would be more than slightly embarrassing.

[CaledonianGonzo]

Maybe she's a Queen fan.

[eFestivals]

So, they saw the chance to cause some mischief and took it.

oh, absolutely - but the 'mischief' is very obviously about provoking the tories into doing the very thing that the SNP claims to not want to happen.

it's nothing about what's good for Scotland and it's nothing about what's good for foxes. It's only about what's good for the SNP.

 

The SNP are trying to ensure that no Scottish representative can ever again become leader of the UK, so they can point at themselves and say how badly done they are.

 

It is a kick in the nuts for the Conservatives as it shows that they cannot reliably use the device of a "Free Vote" to avoid splitting the party over divisive issues.

 

Laughable!

The tories wouldn't be having a free vote in the first place is they weren't already divided over the issue.

 

Chicken Dave laid the bait, and the SNP ate it up like a greedy child, quite happy to ensure a bad effect onto Scotland.

 

 

It does highlight the "West Lothian Question" but I don't think that issue is one on which the Tories are comfortable (remember their full title is the "Conservative and Unioist Party") for Cameron to be the man who presided and perhaps initiated the break up of the UK would be more than slightly embarrassing.

There's not a chance of any break up until the SNP stop lying to Scotland and come up with credible financial policies - which the people of Scotland wouldn't then support anyway. And Chicken Dave knows it.

Nationalism is based in the idea of a national exceptionalism, which is deluding snippers into thinking that only their party is clever enough to play other politicians.

 

Chicken Dave is a c**t, but he's a cleverer c**t than snippers want to credit him as.

Edited July 15, 2015 by eFestivals

[Mardy]

Maybe she's a Queen fan.

 

 

Makes sense. Oh how she wants to break free

[eFestivals]

Makes sense. Oh how she wants to break free

 

... except if Scotland has to self-fund.

 

There's big dreams, and then there's the reality of the world.

[Comfy Bean]

 

But anyway, this is my last post in this thread. If you're really interested in discussing this issue, there's a more relevant place for it, where a discussion has been taking place for 18+ months already. I've no wish to run thru all the same things time and time and again.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree, there is a whole thread of tit for tattery over in the Discussion section. Always good to hear different views - some good points on the SNP already made in this thread in my opinion    

 

In the interest of balance though I thought it was worth quickly pointing out that there are plenty of Labour supporters in Scotland who thought that Scotland was quite capable of being an independent Country and voted as such. It is also worth remembering that at some point in the future, an indy Scotland could easily be governed by the Labour party. 

 

Sure Labour only picked up 1 seat up my way in the General election but things will of course change in the future. Many people see an independent Scotland as a chance for Labour to return to their " roots " and go back to representing the people who feel they have left them behind. They would have no need to compete for votes with the Tories and UKIP and of course with indy the SNP would need to look at re-inventing themselves as their main goal will have been achieved.

 

The SNP are now seen as being the credible " left " option by people in Scotland ( see the election result ) so for Labour to gain more than that 1 seat they would surely have to return ( left ) into the ground that they once occupied up here when they were the ones who commanded massive majorities.

 

Until Independence, Labour in Scotland seem to be stuck between the devil and the deep blue seven seas of rhye *

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* I`m already wearing my coat. 

Edited July 15, 2015 by comfortablynumb1910

[stuartbert two hats]

Some good food for thought on the SNP here.  More research required by me on the number 3 party.

 

I still liked her speech though.

[eFestivals]

In the interest of balance though I thought it was worth quickly pointing out that there are plenty of Labour supporters in Scotland who thought that Scotland was quite capable of being an independent Country and voted as such. It is also worth remembering that at some point in the future, an indy Scotland could easily be governed by the Labour party.

it's only the snippers who I ever see come out with the "too poor, too wee, too stupid" line (or variants of it), and there's a reason why. It's because they wish to avoid discussions of substance.

No one with any sense says Scotland cannot be independent. What is important is what that indie Scotland is able to do, or not do.

The SNP had to lie about what was possible pre-indyref, as shown by the very different things they've been saying since.

If an indy Scotland, a self-funding Scotland, at current levels of prosperity is possible, why are the SNP so very scared of their own policy of FFA?

Edited July 15, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Some good food for thought on the SNP here.  More research required by me on the number 3 party.

I suggest that you do.

I still liked her speech though.

Words, just words.

Words like an average oil price of $113, with it being impossible for the price to fall below $77.

Oil is trading today at $58.51, and the Iran nuclear deal yesterday will see that fall further - for the long-term - as the Iranian oil starts to flow again with sanctions removed.

You're a smart guy, i'm sure you can work it out.

[frostypaw]

The independent Scotland argument is nuts, don't think I'd argue for that - but what she said is right - Scotland was ready for a message of hope and that's what won it

We are too. Now I know this will make a bit of sick come up in our mouths but to many UKIP were that, and look what that achieved.

Scotland questions aside I'm glad of their show off force for now

[Comfy Bean]

it's only the snippers who I ever see come out with the "too poor, too wee, too stupid" line (or variants of it), and there's a reason why. It's because they wish to avoid discussions of substance.

 

 

 

In your view, would a  variant of " too stupid " be ......

 

"we are not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions " ? 

 

Plus I never mentioned any of that. I know you agree that Scotland is capable of being an independent country. I was highlighting the fact that the Indy vote was not a vote for the SNP. Dare I suggest that some people seem to have lost sight of that 

[Comfy Bean]

Neil mate, now you`ve managed to mention the oil price can you quickly give Murdoch & Salmond an outing. I`m only waiting on that for a full house 

[eFestivals]

The independent Scotland argument is nuts, don't think I'd argue for that - but what she said is right - Scotland was ready for a message of hope and that's what won it

We are too. Now I know this will make a bit of sick come up in our mouths but to many UKIP were that, and look what that achieved.

Scotland questions aside I'm glad of their show off force for now

 

All the SNP have managed to achieve is a dis-united opposition that makes tory govts even more likely.

 

Particularly as the "we want England's money" message from the SNP has plenty in England thinking they should GTF.

 

Have you ever stopped to think why the tories suddenly turned things around and beat all expectations in their victory?

[eFestivals]

In your view, would a  variant of " too stupid " be ......

 

"we are not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions " ? 

See, you just can't help yourself, can you? You did it again! :lol:

 

Plus I never mentioned any of that. I know you agree that Scotland is capable of being an independent country. I was highlighting the fact that the Indy vote was not a vote for the SNP. Dare I suggest that some people seem to have lost sight of that 

It was a vote for the SNP's plan, for which the Scottish people would have had no further vote.

 

YOU seem to have lost sight of that!

 

[5co77ie]

is this the right thread? Or is the Independence thread leaking into other threads?

 

So once the Heaven & Hell arc is over, it's an England & Scotland arc in Shangri-La for 2019!

 

With Cornwall fast becoming Arcadia!

[eFestivals]

Neil mate, now you`ve managed to mention the oil price can you quickly give Murdoch & Salmond an outing. I`m only waiting on that for a full house 

 

 

you mean Salmond having sold the First Minster's office to Murdoch, and lied about the number of meetings with Murdoch - all hugely disproportionate to Murdoch's business importance to Scotland, and all this happening AFTER the hacking scandal when even the tories were shunning Murdoch...?

 

But that's not the full house. You're trying to play down just how much of a lying manipulative c**t Salmond is, just for a change.

[budvar]

If you're a right winger at a left wing festival you've made an error somewhere.

 

Can't agree with that; the idea that Glastonbury should be shut to those on the political right is absurd. That's not to say that it's not a left-wing festival, or that it shouldn't continue to be, just that looking to exclude those with different views doesn't strike me as a good way of bringing about lasting change.

 

Glastonbury brings people together; it can't do that as well if some of the people are shut out.

[Comfy Bean]

it's only the snippers who I ever see come out with the "too poor, too wee, too stupid" line (or variants of it), and there's a reason why. It's because they wish to avoid discussions of substance.

No one with any sense says Scotland cannot be independent. What is important is what that indie Scotland is able to do, or not do.

The SNP had to lie about what was possible pre-indyref, as shown by the very different things they've been saying since.

If an indy Scotland, a self-funding Scotland, at current levels of prosperity is possible, why are the SNP so very scared of their own policy of FFA?

 

 

In your view, would a  variant of " too stupid " be ......

 

"we are not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions " ? 

 

Plus I never mentioned any of that. I know you agree that Scotland is capable of being an independent country. I was highlighting the fact that the Indy vote was not a vote for the SNP. Dare I suggest that some people seem to have lost sight of that 

 

My goodness. As fine you know, it was not a snipster who said that. This thread is now feeling very familiar 

 

For anyone who wasn`t aware of this line it was from the ( Scottish ) leader of the Labour party in Scotland in the lead up to the indy vote 

 

After her " victory" she resigned and was critical of the Labour Party for treating Scotland like a " branch office ". As I said earlier, I think an independent Scotland would be good for the Labour party up here. Perhaps Johann Lamont now thinks the same.

 

Apologies for the wrong threadyness